Questionable bailiff behaviour

[m4rk1974]

Hi all.
My car was unlawfully clamped and I'm not the debtor, PCN nothing to do with this car or me - it was my daughter's debt who did not live with us at the time but the warrant was changed over to my address. My daughter does not own a car but she did borrow the clamped car from time to time. I understand the bailiffs are permitted to use a few brain cells on this and have a 'suspicion' but ultimately had no proof the car was hers. I ended up having to pay to get the car back as the bailiff refused my legal documents proving the car mine on the day.

The council have come back (following a complaint) and have said the bailiffs have not done any DVLA checks as they don't have to.

The DVLA have told me that another bailiff firm have checked my car a few weeks prior to the clamp. This firm have told me over the phone it was related to the same PCN but a different Council. DVLA are investigating and I'm preparing an Ombudsman complaint. Both bailiffs are delaying SAR.

Can anyone advise on where I go from here....many thanks

[Kati]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

tagging [MENTION=9189]bizzybob[/MENTION] [MENTION=26498]ploddertom[/MENTION]

[R0b]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

Bailiffs can't take goods which belong to a third party so if they have unlawfully clamped your car then you have a claim through the courts for redress. How long did they clamp it for, did they remove the car at all? Was your daughter put down as the registered keeper and did anyone tell them that the car did not belong to her but someone else?

Did the clamping of the car cause any loss to you such as being unable to use it for work or getting around?

How long has it been since the bailiffs were required to comply with your SAR request? Again you could go through the courts to get an order to hand over the required information within a certain time. Perhaps the threat of legal action might speed it up.

[m4rk1974]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

The car was clamped for around 6 hours - I'm self employed so I was deprived and the bailiff have dismissed this completely. I paid the amount owed as I needed the car back (tow truck was on its way apparently). My daughter has never been a registered keeper of that car and I provided bank statement, V5, receipt from bodyshop/garage I bought the car from but the bailiff and Council refused to accept me as the owner.
My daughter asked a Welsh Assembly Member to help with a repayment plan and he wrote to the bailiff telling them she had no car but was borrowing one (this was 4 months before the clamp).
It's been 65 days with SAR with the bailiff who clamped the car and ICO are investigating. The bailiff who did a DVLA check on my car are hiding behind they don't have an 'account' with me but the 40 days have not yet passed.
I've been threatening legal action from the start - they laugh it off...totally arrogant lot including the council who have practically copied the bailiff response to my complaint.
I hope this helps.

[R0b]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

I guess you may have to put your threats into action, If they were put on notice that the car was not owned by the daughter and you had proof that the car was yours and they did not remove the clamp then you will have a claim against them for wrongful interference of goods and more specifically the tort of conversion.

You should be able to claim back the amount you paid plus damages plus potentially your losses if you have had jobs that day to attend to and can prove it.

As for the SAR about the other bailiff and not having an account, that is irrelevant if they hold information on you then they must supply it, or tell you that they do not hold any information.

You could include the council as a defendant to the claim, to recover losses by either the bailiff or them as you could potentially argue that they are vicariously liable for the actions of the bailiffs under their instructions. That might change their minds but ultimately it is up to you whether you want to pursue the matter through the courts or write it off.

It sounds like you do have some solid evidence that the bailiffs were aware of this so it is up to you really. You could perhaps also complain to the Ombudsman as an alternative but that may take some time given the difficulties you are having with the council at the moment.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

The car was clamped for around 6 hours - I'm self employed so I was deprived and the bailiff have dismissed this completely. I paid the amount owed as I needed the car back (tow truck was on its way apparently). My daughter has never been a registered keeper of that car and I provided bank statement, V5, receipt from bodyshop/garage I bought the car from but the bailiff and Council refused to accept me as the owner.
My daughter asked a Welsh Assembly Member to help with a repayment plan and he wrote to the bailiff telling them she had no car but was borrowing one (this was 4 months before the clamp).
It's been 65 days with SAR with the bailiff who clamped the car and ICO are investigating. The bailiff who did a DVLA check on my car are hiding behind they don't have an 'account' with me but the 40 days have not yet passed.
I've been threatening legal action from the start - they laugh it off...totally arrogant lot including the council who have practically copied the bailiff response to my complaint.
I hope this helps.

You paid the bailiffs their money - so it's going to be rather difficult to get the money back now. The general law is that the onus is not on them to prove ownership of the car; the onus is on the debtor/ 3rd party other. Her debt - but why was the warrant transferred to your address. Did they unlawfully clamp the vehicle is the legal question. Your daughter owed the debt, and you allude she lived with you previously, so was she still registered as living at your address? The warrant was for your address because the bailiffs likely believed she still lived there. They believed it was her car, as you concede, because she has used it several times. Did they ask where your daughter lives, if so I assume you never told them. If you're being awkward with them, so will they. They will argue at that time that they lawfully believed the car was your daughter's on the evidence and it would be unfair to return any money. I am playing devil's advocate by the way, am not saying I agree with the bailiffs.

[m4rk1974]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

That's no problem to see things from the other side - it helps as we know what sort of defence they will use.
My daughter has not lived at my property for many years. The problem arose when my daughter was abroad. She found out about the PCN and submitted the TE7/9 to the courts using my address (as a care of but didn't state this unfortunately). The warrant was changed to my address and we've had a long running battle with the Council to prove she did not reside here. The ombudsman got involved and the council finally accepted she did not reside here but did not recall the warrant.
When she did return to the UK, she had no where to live and was sofa surfing with friends and such - there was no address and I let her use my car for a short while to help her get back on her feet. This is why she contacted the Welsh AM to help as the bailiff continued their enforcement and sent letters to us threatening removal. She was not registered on any electoral role and I genuinely had no address I could give them.
She had nothing to take and the bailiff would have known this which is why I'm guessing they went for my car - the warrant was weeks away form expiring and I guess they were getting desperate.
It's all very complicated to be fair. The bailiff have actually told a police officer they knew it was my car and I'm awaiting for that report to come through (after I reported this to the police).

[R0b]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

You paid the bailiffs their money - so it's going to be rather difficult to get the money back now. The general law is that the onus is not on them to prove ownership of the car; the onus is on the debtor/ 3rd party other. Her debt - but why was the warrant transferred to your address. Did they unlawfully clamp the vehicle is the legal question. Your daughter owed the debt, and you allude she lived with you previously, so was she still registered as living at your address? The warrant was for your address because the bailiffs likely believed she still lived there. They believed it was her car, as you concede, because she has used it several times. Did they ask where your daughter lives, if so I assume you never told them. If you're being awkward with them, so will they. They will argue at that time that they lawfully believed the car was your daughter's on the evidence and it would be unfair to return any money. I am playing devil's advocate by the way, am not saying I agree with the bailiffs.

It won't be difficult getting money back if they were unlawfully clamping his car. The law says that they cannot take goods belonging to a debtor and so there is a presumption that reasonable case must be taken to avoid taking third party goods which are not owned by the debtor. The bailiffs have received a letter from the local MP explicitly stating that the daughter does not have a car but is borrowing one. That wording cannot be any clearer than it is, so they are on notice and any car they see must take reasonable steps to ascertain whether or not it belongs to the debtor.

They can't go round taking peoples things as and when they choose merely because they believed the car to be hers. what proof have they got that it is hers? If they contacted the DVLA to see if it was registered to her then they would know it was not. If they didn't bother to do that then they have taken no reasonable steps to ascertain what goods belong to her and so they are liable for their actions.

It is spelled out plain and claim that only goods belonging to the debtor can be seized. If third party goods are seized and evidence is shown of proof then they must be released. Here they refused to unclamp despite being shown all the evidence needed that it does not belong to the daughter and then used the threat of a recovery vehicle to obtain the monies by duress/undue influence and contrary to CPUT as well.

You have more than enough evidence to get your money back and damages as a result

[Openlaw15]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

It won't be difficult getting money back if they were unlawfully clamping his car. The law says that they cannot take goods belonging to a debtor and so there is a presumption that reasonable case must be taken to avoid taking third party goods which are not owned by the debtor. The bailiffs have received a letter from the local MP explicitly stating that the daughter does not have a car but is borrowing one. That wording cannot be any clearer than it is, so they are on notice and any car they see must take reasonable steps to ascertain whether or not it belongs to the debtor.

They can't go round taking peoples things as and when they choose merely because they believed the car to be hers. what proof have they got that it is hers? If they contacted the DVLA to see if it was registered to her then they would know it was not. If they didn't bother to do that then they have taken no reasonable steps to ascertain what goods belong to her and so they are liable for their actions.

It is spelled out plain and claim that only goods belonging to the debtor can be seized. If third party goods are seized and evidence is shown of proof then they must be released. Here they refused to unclamp despite being shown all the evidence needed that it does not belong to the daughter and then used the threat of a recovery vehicle to obtain the monies by duress/undue influence and contrary to CPUT as well.

You have more than enough evidence to get your money back and damages as a result

The debtor/ 3rd party has to prove ownership not the bailiff. If the op could have proven that the car belonged to the daughter then before payment the car would be released from bailiffs possession. The law requires reasonableness from the debtor/ 3rd party as well as the bailiff. The debtor could simply have said, look, she doesn't live here. The reasonable debtor would also have ensured that the warrant did not go to their address but the daughter's instead. I think a claim for damages on these circumstances is not easy, BUT if the Welsh MP made clear that the daughter did not own the specific car (in question) this may be persuasive. The law is strict and bailiffs do not have time to do searches when the most obvious course of action is to ask the person directly in front of them. A tort for interference of goods will not be easy and if the bailiffs get a costs order it will be even more expensive. It just depends how much daughter's debt was, the costs for the bailiffs returning possession of the car, in addition to the risk of losing a questionable tort case. I do not think the evidence for tort in this case is prima facie.

[R0b]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

See post #4

My daughter has never been a registered keeper of that car and I provided bank statement, V5, receipt from bodyshop/garage I bought the car from but the bailiff and Council refused to accept me as the owner.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

See post #4

So, then the legal question moves to, how does the law define ownership. Proof of purchase from the owner to seller, registering the car in one's name, a bank transaction debit, should be constructive proof of ownership. If the Council refused to accept there was no ownership on the op's evidence, it would be interesting to know just why not, I mean based on law (not on the relationship the Council has with the bailiff). It sounds like a good case for a Local Gov. Ombudsman complaint, ie it wreaks of judicial review: Wednesbury unreasonable, against the Council. I think the Ombudsman route is the best course of action. The Ombudsman is not obliged to consider a tort of trespass though.

[m4rk1974]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

Thank you for all your responses so far.
The council have questioned the validity of my purchase receipt as the auto body shop who sold it to me was not VAT registered - which is ridiculous. What their VAT status is has nothing to do with them. The bank statement provided showing funds transferred from my savings account into my main account and a bank transfer to the same person who owns the body shop. All other transactions were redacted and the bailiff company rejected these documents. Obviously the V5 does not prove ownership but does show who is responsible for the vehicle. They are clearly clutching at straws and trying to discredit me - possibly trying to put me off.
I have cast serious doubt as to the timing of the clamp - it was before 6am and the council have given two separate timings that differ to the paperwork left on the car.
I will be escalating this to the Ombudsman firstly but my main issue is with this 3rd party bailiff check of my car to the DVLA and what relevance does this have to my case.

[R0b]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

My opinion is that where there is a dispute with ownership of goods, the first port of call would be to provide documentation and evidence as you have done. If there is no evidence then before seizing the vehicle the bailiff should be satisfied it belongs to the debtor (because the car on the drive might be a friend who has parked up and left it there) and ought to take reasonable steps to identify true ownership.

You are right, V5C does not prove ownership but if the name is not even in the debtors, then there is a good chance that the car does not belong to the debtor in the first place taking into account your other evidence also. The LGO will of course be the appropriate starting point as it is free service. If you get nothing from that then you can look at the alternatives.

The link here gives ideas as to the remedies availabel to the Ombudsman -> LGO Remedies

[m4rk1974]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

Do the same rules apply for all ombudsmans? Ours is the Welsh Government Ombudsman.

[R0b]

Re: Questionable bailiff behaviour

It would appear that financial redress is available, the first link is an advice sheet about bailiffs, and the second one is about remedies available.

http://www.ombudsman-wales.org.uk/~/...sion%2020.ashx

http://www.ombudsman-wales.org.uk/~/...sion%2020.ashx