sjpn for No insurance - will loose licence

[harimalone]

Hi All,

I am seriously stressed regarding this case and hopefully someone can help direct me.

Essentially 6 months ago i was in an emergency with partner and new born (just left doctors), her car was fully insured under her name, however she was no longer able to drive so i did. She purchased the insurance on a temp website at 12:08. @12:15 police stop us, officer says i dont have insurance etc and my partner is on the temp insurance website attempting to get the insurance certificate. He then accuses me of attempting to purchase insurance while we was stopped. My partner unknowingly purchased insurance starting at 12:30pm. I have proof on her bank statement she purchased on 12:08pm. Officer let us drive off but reported us. Per other forums they suggested i have zero chance of not guilty. So i have responded as guilty but will pursue a special reasons case.

I will look to present the bank statement showing 12:08pm purchase, also the time between 12:15-12:30 is so minimal, along with doctors appointment proof i had a new born at the time and a genuine emergency at the time coming back. The distance between location of stop and house was no longer than 5mins.

Is this case worth special reasons the reason why im stressed is because on the case notes the officer said he saw myself / my partner attempting to purchase the temp insurance while stopped - even if i can provide proof i purchased beforehand will this be on deaf ears? (Also the car was fully insured at the time under my partner, and i have the exact same car insured under my name so i would have no benefit of driving her car, can provide insurance docs/v5c)

Any further points or direction will be appreciated. at the time i was on 6 points (2 speeding) one will drop off in September. So will loose licence and the IN10 indorsement will thoroughly ruin my possibility of driving for 5 years.

is there any infomation online regarding to cases so i can read up and prepare myself for court?

[DE DOGS]

Personally, I would contact your Insurance Co. point out that you are covered by them, but I am not sure you are allowed to drive another car under your cover. it all rests on the Insurance reply, if you are covered, ask for a cover letter, if you have to attend Court produce it there.

[HandyAndy]

I think your "Special Reasons" argument was well discussed on your other thread (to which I contributed) and the conclusion was it might succeed or it might not (as is the usual conclusion with anything that is subjective and which depends on the court on the day). But if you have pleaded guilty it is your only chance of avoiding six points and it will cost you nothing to make the argument (other than your time attending court).

If you believe the officer's statement (that he saw your partner attempting to purchase cover after you were stopped) you could offer a "basis of plea" where you plead guilty but disagree with his statement. The court will then have to decide whether his statement would materially affect their Special Reasons decision. If it would not, they must ignore it, if it would they must order what's known as a "Newton Hearing" where the officer is called to give evidence and you can cross examine him about what he says he saw.

[harimalone]

I think your "Special Reasons" argument was well discussed on your other thread (to which I contributed) and the conclusion was it might succeed or it might not (as is the usual conclusion with anything that is subjective and which depends on the court on the day). But if you have pleaded guilty it is your only chance of avoiding six points and it will cost you nothing to make the argument (other than your time attending court).

If you believe the officer's statement (that he saw your partner attempting to purchase cover after you were stopped) you could offer a "basis of plea" where you plead guilty but disagree with his statement. The court will then have to decide whether his statement would materially affect their Special Reasons decision. If it would not, they must ignore it, if it would they must order what's known as a "Newton Hearing" where the officer is called to give evidence and you can cross examine him about what he says he saw.

Many thanks for your assistance on other threads. I was originally in hope that my case was a 50/50 and was happy with these odds. but given the officers statement im worried this will leave me with judging panel who follow a officers statement as opposed to my story with facts + proof. in terms of your basis of plea how do i do this? and what would i need? if i provide the bank statement that shows transaction time being 12:08 is this enough to sway the room? in terms of a newton hearing how would this process happen? all on the same day? or would i have to request this ahead of time

also what are your thoughts on running this case myself? compared to using a lawyer ? im pretty good at public speaking and can do relevant background reading if needed and documentation work.

[HandyAndy]

First of all, when you responded to the SJPN with your guilty plea, did you make it known that you wanted to argue "Special Reasons" (SR) (in which case you need a hearing which you can attend)?

...or would i have to request this [Newton Hearing] ahead of time

Just to clarify, you don't get to request it. You must make the court aware that your guilty plea is on the basis that you disagree with the officer's statement .and you believe it will unduly influence the court's decision on your SR. The court must then consider whether his statement, if they accepted it as accurate and true, would influence their decision. If they believe it would they must either order a Newton Hearing (which will see the officer called yo give evidence so that it can be "tested" in court to establish its truth or otherwise) or they must ignore it when making their decision.

I see your argument as this:

You bought cover at 12:08, (which you can prove) believing the start time chosen was 12:15
Because of an error, the start time was actually 12:30
When you were stopped at 12:15 the police accused you of having no cover
The police accused your partner of attempting to buy cover after you were stopped and say they saw her doing so.

There's no reason why you should not handle his yourself. The trickiest part, however, will be cross-examining the police officer (if that becomes necessary). As far as practicalities go, if the court decides a Newton Hearing is required this is unlikely to be dealt with in one hearing. The court will probably hold a "case management" hearing to identify the issues agreed and those in dispute and to sort out the officer's attendance. If no NH is required however, they may hear your SR argument at the first hearing..

If you want to go down this route you have two priorities:

1. To ensure the court is aware that you want to run a "Special Reasons" argument.
2. To inform the court that your guilty plea is on the basis that your partner did not attempt to obtain cover after you were stopped and so you disagree with the officer's statement.

You need to ensure (1) even if you don't want to do (2).

One thing worries me (and may cause he court to ask questions): were you stopped immediately you began driving? You believed cover began at 12:15 and you were stopped at 12:15.

[wales01man]

At what time did the cover starts via the insurance company?

[harimalone]

First of all, when you responded to the SJPN with your guilty plea, did you make it known that you wanted to argue "Special Reasons" (SR) (in which case you need a hearing which you can attend)?




Just to clarify, you don't get to request it. You must make the court aware that your guilty plea is on the basis that you disagree with the officer's statement .and you believe it will unduly influence the court's decision on your SR. The court must then consider whether his statement, if they accepted it as accurate and true, would influence their decision. If they believe it would they must either order a Newton Hearing (which will see the officer called yo give evidence so that it can be "tested" in court to establish its truth or otherwise) or they must ignore it when making their decision.

I see your argument as this:

You bought cover at 12:08, (which you can prove) believing the start time chosen was 12:15
Because of an error, the start time was actually 12:30
When you were stopped at 12:15 the police accused you of having no cover
The police accused your partner of attempting to buy cover after you were stopped and say they saw her doing so.

There's no reason why you should not handle his yourself. The trickiest part, however, will be cross-examining the police officer (if that becomes necessary). As far as practicalities go, if the court decides a Newton Hearing is required this is unlikely to be dealt with in one hearing. The court will probably hold a "case management" hearing to identify the issues agreed and those in dispute and to sort out the officer's attendance. If no NH is required however, they may hear your SR argument at the first hearing..

If you want to go down this route you have two priorities:

1. To ensure the court is aware that you want to run a "Special Reasons" argument.
2. To inform the court that your guilty plea is on the basis that your partner did not attempt to obtain cover after you were stopped and so you disagree with the officer's statement.

You need to ensure (1) even if you don't want to do (2).

One thing worries me (and may cause he court to ask questions): were you stopped immediately you began driving? You believed cover began at 12:15 and you were stopped at 12:15.

thanks again, on my SJPN- I replied online for ease, and I selected the option as guilty and I want to have a hearing. I didn’t provide any further detail (is this sufficient if I want to run a SR case?)

if not how can I ensure 1+2 gets done I’m more than happy to run both arguments for sure as they both flow into each other and build a timeline of events.

12:15 stop time I think is wrong. I believe they stopped me at 12:18 and they saw me driving at 12:16/17. The officers have video evidence per the SJPN, I got pulled pretty much instantly from beginning my journey. Regardless they saw me driving at 12:15 per SJPN and I had assumed at 12:15 I was insured. Also note we were at a doctors appointment at 11:30 which I can provide proof of the time day and what type of appointment and how long this would of took (in this case it was a specific appointment which lasted 30-45mins if I remember and doctor can confirm how long they usually last)

[harimalone]

At what time did the cover starts via the insurance company?

12:30 selected in error by partner , we both thought I was insured from 12:15

[HandyAndy]

thanks again, on my SJPN- I replied online for ease, and I selected the option as guilty and I want to have a hearing. I didn’t provide any further detail (is this sufficient if I want to run a SR case?)

I would contact the court (by e-mail if that is possible), followed up by a letter of confirmation) telling them that your guilty plea is on the basis as discussed above and that you want to run a SR argument. Try to get a "read receipt" for the e-mail if possible. Keep a copy of the letter and get a free certificate of posting from the Post Office. The court will probably want to allow some extra time for your hearing and so may take it out of the usual "sausage machine" traffic court. Whether they do or not is up to them, but if you tell them of your intentions they cannot say they had no warning.

[wales01man]

They may will take it that insurance began after you were stopped islandgirl may advise further

[HandyAndy]

They may will take it that insurance began after you were stopped islandgirl may advise further

That has already been accepted by the OP (hence his guilty plea) and isn't the issue he needs advice on. As above, he wants to run a "Special Reasons" argument and coupled with that is his objection to the police officer's statement being used as fact.

[wales01man]

Looks like the time recorded by the police will prevail courts tend to accept Police statements

[HandyAndy]

Looks like the time recorded by the police will prevail courts tend to accept Police statements

If you read the entire thread you will see that the OP is not disputing the time that cover began. Because of an error when purchasing it, the start time was 12:30, which he accepts.

If you especially read posts numbers 3 and 5 you will see that the issue he has is with the police officer's statement which says he saw the OP's partner attempting to purchase cover after he was stopped. He takes issue with this statement (and in fact has evidence to show that the cover was purchased at 12:08). He believes that the statement, if accepted, will jeopardise his "Special Reasons" argument. I have explained that the statement cannot "prevail" (i.e. go unchallenged) unless either (a) the defendant agrees to it or (b) he has the opportunity to question the witness in person. He doesn't agree to it and unless the court orders a "Newton Hearing", which will require the officer to attend court (or a least appear via LiveLink) the statement cannot contribute to the Bench's decision when they consider his Special Reasons argument.

[harimalone]

I would contact the court (by e-mail if that is possible), followed up by a letter of confirmation) telling them that your guilty plea is on the basis as discussed above and that you want to run a SR argument. Try to get a "read receipt" for the e-mail if possible. Keep a copy of the letter and get a free certificate of posting from the Post Office. The court will probably want to allow some extra time for your hearing and so may take it out of the usual "sausage machine" traffic court. Whether they do or not is up to them, but if you tell them of your intentions they cannot say they had no warning.

I will follow this process. On the follow up email from gov.uk they provided the email to the court with read receipt + the letter you mentioned i will request recorded delivery to the court. Two questions if you have a minute, On the email do i say i am providing further information and requesting a special reasons hearing as a direct result of my guilty plea, how much information about the case do i provide on the email? do i attach any proof of bank statement, doctors appointment, insurance proof etc? also do i put the information regarding the newton hearing on here also?

Kind Regards!

[HandyAndy]

At this stage all you need to ensure is that the court is aware of your intentions. So I suggest something along these lines:

Although I have pleaded guilty I have asked for a hearing which I can attend because I intend to argue that there are "Special Reasons" not to endorse my driving record and impose penalty points or a disqualification. Could you also please place on record that my guilty plea is on the basis that my partner did not attempt to secure insurance cover after I was stopped by the police. Cover had been purchased before I began driving. I therefore disagree with the statement of [PC Plod] and object to its contents being used as part of the prosecution's statement of facts. .

You don't have to mention the Newton Hearing - as I said, whether that's needed is a matter for the court to decide. . Do not provide any evidence at this stage. You can get that together when you have a hearing date and you have decided on your strategy.

Just thinking that through the likely scenario briefly, at your hearing you and the prosecutor will have to produce a written version of your basis of plea which you will both sign. If you then produce evidence, which the court accepts, that cover was purchased at 12:08, that largely kicks the officer's claim into touch. But don't worry about the process at this stage. The Magistrates have a Legal Advisor to advise them on points of law but he or she also has a duty to you, as an unrepresented defendant, to guide you through the court process.

Let me know if I can help further.