Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

[Magrew]

Hi folks , my question is quite straight forward but I can't find a simple answer.
I live in Scotland but that should not affect this answer, can a severely mentally impaired person be the liable person in respect of Council Tax?

The question appears simple but it has had me struggling to find definition for weeks.

I know that someone who is SMI is exempt from CT and water charges if they live on their own (I would be very grateful if someone could confirm the legal reference for this fact). I also know that if 2 SMI live together then the property is still exempt rather than treated as empty ( where it would attract a 50% discount).

Where I am struggling is to find the logic where an SMI individual with a live in carer suddenly becomes liable for 75% CT.

Can anyone help?

[des8]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

Isn't the answer that owner/occupier or tenant is liable for CT.
If that person is SMI he is still liable for the CT (which is nil due to exemption)
If there is a live in carer the owner/occupier or tenant is still liable for the CT (which is 75% as classed as only one person living there.

I don't think the person with SMI has suddenly become liable for CT.
He has always been liable, just that there wasn't any to pay!

Don't know which regulations tho'.

[Magrew]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

I don't think it is that simple

It is my understanding (but I don't have the legal reference, I wish I did) that someone SMI is exempt from CT. Exempt has the definition of "not liable'' in legal terms as opposed to disregarded which means not counted as a resident adult.

The reason it is significant is whether the SMI individuals income is that considered in any reduction assessment.

If you are deemed exempt I can't see how you Could then be legally the liable person.

[des8]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

I thought the terminology was not one of "exemption" but "entitled to 100% reduction in amount payable".
But having same difficulty as you in locating actual regulation!

[ploddertom]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

Have a read http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_a...tax_exemptions

[des8]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Governmen...tax/leaflets/0
PEOPLE WHO ARE SEVERELY MENTALLY IMPAIRED
If you are severely mentally impaired you will be treated as not living in your home when the council counts the number of adults resident in your household. The council needs to know the number of adults resident in order to determine whether or not the bill should include a discount. Any discount will depend on how many other adults there are in your home. If you are severely mentally impaired and live with 2 or more adults, the bill will not be reduced. If you live with one adult, the bill will be reduced by 25%. If you live alone your home will be exempt. For council tax purposes, you will be regarded as severely mentally impaired if you have, for whatever reason, a severe impairment of intelligence and social functioning which appears to be permanent. This includes people who are severely mentally impaired as a result of a degenerative brain disorder such as Alzheimer's disease, a stroke or other forms of dementia. In order not to be counted you must also be entitled to one of a number of benefits.

.....but still not the actual regulations which I think are hidden within the council tax (reductions for disabilities) (scotland) regulations 1992 & http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20...lation/68/made

I don't think the income of the person with SMI is taken into account, but will continue search tomorrow as off to bed soon!

[Magrew]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

l think it it may be in different legislation, that legislation deals with " reduction" and confirms a reduction for a Carer living with someone diagnosed with a severe disability. The reference l am looking for confirms exemption for Council Tax and Water charges specifically for severe mental impairment.

l believe the reason it is not referenced in the referenced legislation above is because they are not entitled to a reduction because they cannot be liable for the tax. Problem is I cannot identify the legislation that confirms that.

I know that impairment is treated differently to disability because they are seperate questions on Council Tax forms.

[Magrew]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

This guide confirms the property as exempt, i.e. no-one is liable for CT. As opposed to treated as empty where the owner is liable for Council Tax.

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Governmen...tax/leaflets/0

I just need to find the legislation that makes that determination.

[des8]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

[QUOTE=Magrew;647777]This guide confirms the property as exempt


That confirmation is "If you live alone your home will be exempt" and also says:" If you live with one adult, the bill will be reduced by 25%."
A live in carer would mean 75% CT payable.


Still looking for exact regulation, rather than interpretative leaflets!

[Magrew]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

[QUOTE=des8;647792]

This guide confirms the property as exempt


That confirmation is "If you live alone your home will be exempt" and also says:" If you live with one adult, the bill will be reduced by 25%."
A live in carer would mean 75% CT payable.


Still looking for exact regulation, rather than interpretative leaflets!

And logically that is an answer but in actual fact the carer is then disregarded (due to the person they are caring for being SMI and in receipt of middle or higher level DLA care component) and it isn't 75% payable. The property could then be treated as empty and attract a 50% discount or some advisory sites say that it could also remain to be exempt.

Bear in mind a person with SMI may have no capacity to be legally bound to any liability, they could suffer severe dementia or Alzheimers or non-communicative with autism for example, theses are the reasons I believe that they are treated differently to other disabilities.

It is then important to know who the liable person is who can implement the CTR claim because the claim is based upon their income.

I hope I have been clear and you can see the reason I believe that the "reductions for disabilities" is relevant to the person who owns the property because I strongly suspect there is separate legislation that defines them not liable (or exempt) from CT. The words "mental impairment" are not present anywhere in those regulations. Hence the reason I need to identify the relevant legislation.

[wales01man]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

Why would anyone except an excemt person not pay thousands of families would be paying no CT because of one person in the household needs clarification from yours or their Council?

[Magrew]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

Why would anyone except an excemt person not pay thousands of families would be paying no CT because of one person in the household needs clarification from yours or their Council?

I will try and outline the confusion with some examples, the first three are published by the Scottish government, the third is the scenario that will be under test at the tribunal.

Example A
A single man lives alone and is severely mentally impaired. The property will be exempt and there will be no council tax bill. (0%, no defined liable person, there is nothing to be liable for, and no requirement to fill in a Council Reduction form just submission of SMI certificate)

Example D
Two brothers live together and are both severely mentally impaired. They are co-owners of their home. The property will be exempt and there will be no council tax bill. (0%, no defined liable person, there is nothing to be liable for, and no requirement to fill in a Council Reduction form just submission of SMI certificates)

Example E
Two people share a flat. One is severely mentally impaired and the other is a student. The property will be exempt and there will be no council tax bill, as a student is equally disregarded from the calculation when determining the number of adults in the flat. (0%, no defined liable person, there is nothing to be liable for, and no requirement to fill in a Council Reduction form just submission of SMI certificate and student certificate)

Example in hand
Three people are in the household one is SMI and owns the property (disregarded) another is SMI and a non-dependant (disregarded) and the third is a carer for the other two (also disregarded). In this case the house is stated to be treated as empty as opposed to exempt, even though as before it is the case that all individuals are disregarded, it therefore attracts a 50% charge for CT and water charges rather than 0%.

The change being that one of the disregards is not SMI and for some reason, that I cannot find definition for, this makes a very significant difference to how CT is treated.

My question is who is the liable person (bearing in mind the owner is SMI and therefore may well not have the capacity to complete the required application forms)? And then what income is to be taken into account in any evaluation of CTR.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

Hi folks , my question is quite straight forward but I can't find a simple answer.
I live in Scotland but that should not affect this answer, can a severely mentally impaired person be the liable person in respect of Council Tax?

The question appears simple but it has had me struggling to find definition for weeks.

I know that someone who is SMI is exempt from CT and water charges if they live on their own (I would be very grateful if someone could confirm the legal reference for this fact). I also know that if 2 SMI live together then the property is still exempt rather than treated as empty ( where it would attract a 50% discount).

Where I am struggling is to find the logic where an SMI individual with a live in carer suddenly becomes liable for 75% CT.

Can anyone help?

The property attracts council tax not the person who owns or occupies it.

[des8]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

Property attracts CT, but person legally responsible for payment is the owner or tenant.

In M's scenario there are three occupants
2 are SMI and so disregarded
1 is full time live in carer and so also disregarded.(apologies for my error in post 2 .Typing without thinking!)

Council are treating property as empty, rather than as occupied by persons who are disregarded.
Looking for relevant regulations.

[Magrew]

Re: Severe Mental Impairment - Liable Person

The property attracts council tax not the person who owns or occupies it.

That may be so but someone is liable for that tax. The question is who? In the first of my two scenarios above it would appear that the law makers have deemed it that individuals with SMI aren't liable and to ensure that they have made the property exempt.

In the last it is treated as empty and therefore attracts 50%, but who is the liable person? It is that person who must seek CTR and it is their income that is considered in the assessment.

- - - Updated - - -

Property attracts CT, but person legally responsible for payment is the owner or tenant.

In M's scenario there are three occupants
2 are SMI and so disregarded
1 is full time live in carer and so also disregarded.(apologies for my error in post 2 .Typing without thinking!)

Council are treating property as empty, rather than as occupied by persons who are disregarded.
Looking for relevant regulations.

Sorry, posts crossed.

Yes you have summarised it well, thank you.