Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

[gmleo]

Hi

I need some advice please.
Some background first, but in summary, I want to set aside a liability order awarded yesterday by magistrates, over a council tax bill that is in dispute and they've involved my housemate.

I share a house with a housemate, just one, previously it was two others.
I've lived in the same house for 12 years and this is the first time I've ever been late with council tax.

July 2013 I left JSA and went self employed, sole trader, filled in a change of circumstances form with local Council for housing benefit and council tax.
The council HB team made mistakes with my earning and expenditure form, miscalculated and declared I am entitled to zero.
I've been appealing and asking for a tribunal since Oct last year.

My argument is they've still made errors, but they won't listen, won't send my claim to the tribunal as they keep resetting the appeals process whenever they make a small amendment to their decision.

I've submitted SAR in Oct' 2013, they refused saying they needed proof of identity. Even though they already have it.
Submitted another SAR with brand new passport in May 2014, no reply.
I believe the SAR may help me with my defense.

So, after three or more sets of appeals, each time I win something, I am now receiving a small amount of housing benefit, took a year but it's a start.
The council have decided that I'm earning too much for council tax entitlement, £17 a week over the threshold.
Problem is, I don't even know what I've earned yet and can't afford an accountant this next week or three weeks either.
I know my turnover, but don't know my net profit yet as I'm not an accountant, not aware of all the expenses that are claimable and which are not, or the limits for each category of tax expense I can claim back.
Or even if capital tax for my van would be included in my accounts as opposed to the councils incomes expenditure self declaration form, or not.

Yesterday the magistrates granted a liability order against me and my housemate, who has paid her half of the Council Tax, never been late and never missed a payment.
They granted it because the council said we have a joint tenancy agreement.
I'm looking at my agreement, and it says it's an "assured short-hold agreement"with two names on it.
It does not say "joint" anywhere.

Q: Is it a joint tenancy agreement or not?
If not, is that grounds to apply to the magistrate to have it set aside?

The start date of the agreement is 01.01.2010
Both myself and my housemate signed it on 19.12.2009
Does this invalidate the agreement?

I am looking to have the liability order set aside, we've contacted our landlord to request separate contracts and I will have a phone call with my landlord to discuss backdating it too.

I'm mortified that my housemate has been dragged into this and I want to undo what has been down and find a way to move her out of the firing line.
Ideally to undo what has been done, but at least to take her out of this argument from now onwards.
Having two separate contracts would achieve this, yes?




I need help.

[stevemLS]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

You face a few difficulties as I understand it. Joint tenants are jointly and severally liable for the council tax meaning the council can pursue each of you for the full amount, they don't regard you as being individually responsible for half.

It sounds like a joint tenancy if you are both named as tenants on the agreement.

The fact that you signed it before it commenced does not affect its validity.

I'm not sure what, if any, other grounds you might have to seek to contest the liability order. I don't even know whether the Magistrates have the power to set aside their decision. As far as I know the only way to appeal is by way of case stated which is a High Court (read very expensive) process. It has to be done within 21 days of the date of the order and the Magistrates can refuse to state a case if they believe your request to be frivolous.

The only alternative is Judicial Review, which is even more expensive and can only be done on public law grounds.

Sorry.

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

http://greenhalghkerr.com/articles-n...bility-orders/
Liverpool City Council v Pleroma Distribution Limited [2002] EWHC 2467

I was thinking of this when i said set aside liability order.
Spoke to my landlady and it seems we have had separate contracts since 05 April 2013.
Three months before this dispute even began.
I'll inform the council and courts of their error and let you know how it goes.

[stevemLS]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Interesting, thank you.

Of course the article goes on to cite two cases which have narrowed and refined the decision in Liverpool.

Assuming you make the application promptly, how do you think you meet the other two limbs of the test (trying to help you formulate you argument here)

There must be a genuine and arguable dispute as to the defendant’s liability to the order in question; and


2. The order must be made as a result of a substantial procedural error, defect or mishap; and

[stevemLS]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

I don't quite follow that you could have two separate contracts if the one you referred to named you as joint tenants?

Am I being dim (quite possible!)

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

In court earlier this week, a liability order was granted against both of us, for non payment of council tax.
Housemate has already paid her part, up to date, but she's been also ordered to pay my late part too.
This is based on us having a joint tenancy, presumably, because there are two names on the shorthold assured tenancy agreement from 01.01.2010

Now, after talking to my landlord, we do have individual tenancy agreements, we've had them for 14 months and just didn't know about it
Meaning, I can go to the court, show them two separate individual tenancy agreements thus demonstrating a mistake has been made, the court has made an award it's not entitled to make.
To my knowledge, the court cannot make a liabity order to my housemate for my part of the council tax debt if we are not in a joint tenancy.
Our individual contracts are dated April 2013, 3 months before my CT arrears started which was in July 2013.

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Thanks SteveM for your replies.
I don't have the answers yet about the "other two limbs" if the test.
Any normal arguments of "not fair", or "She's paid her half, how dare you!" or, "the claim is in dispute", or, "SAR still not compiled with", none of these help in the courts. Naturally.

My argument would be we have two separate agreements, simple.

Another argunment is, let's assume I pay the entire debt on Monday, and I show them two separate agreements, be it the court or the council, or both.
Under those circumstances how then can this liability order legally remain against my housemate for My future payments until April 2015 ?

[stevemLS]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

My understanding is that for council tax purposes, unless the property is divided into two flats, then it is one property, with one bill.

I don't really understand how you can have two separate tenancies for the same property - as a matter of law.

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

SteveM

Previously been the case whenever one of the housemates leaves the house, the remaining tenants get a new contract, with the new persons name on it.
Landlord tends to increase the rent a little each year, around £50 each, each time she does that, we get a new tenancy agreement.
Not unusual for this to happen, I have maybe 5 or 6 tenancy agreements from this one house over the past 12 years that I can show the court to prove it's not a frivolous claim, we genuinely have had two separate agreements for 17 months and just forgot.

The Council would have had no right to bring this liability order claim in the first place, had they had known of these new agreements.
They're working from an old agreement, because it wasn't a new claim but a "change of circumstances claim" they never asked to see the tenancy agreement again.

It is my hope that this in itself will be enough to set aside or quash the ruling.
Or am I deluded?

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

I see. This is what the magistrate told us in court. To sever the joint tenancy, get two separate tenancies and they can't touch her.
The Council seemed to agree.
The court and the council both said they sympathised with my housemate, but they are tied because of this joint tenancy and so made the award.

Please understand, this isn't about me, this isn't about the bill or to pay or not to pay, this is all about protecting my housemate from my fallout.
Not a solicitor or legal expert, I don't know, which is why I'm here.
All I know is what the magistrates and council have said in court and here I am.
So, we're they wrong? You're saying they can still keep this liability order and they can still enforce it on separate tenancies?
Would they not have to make a claim to the court first to class it the property as HMO?

[wales01man]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Your argument needs to be with the Council I have a feeling you would be very lucky to get round this after all we all know Councils get the money by dubious means in Court and trying to fight them is not easy .
The one way to protect Housemate is to [ay up then fight it before the Bailiff calls they will then need Protecting

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

I am just looking in at a very late stage - also read thread quickly and because Council Tax re: our son came to mind and his situation. As I was reading this does this property become a 'House of Multiple Occupation' HMO. If more than one tenant in house - doesn't matter who - unless a relative then it is up to the owner of the property to pay the Council Tax.

Sorry if I have joined in with useless info but just sometimes another thought might help. Good Luck as dealing with Councils we have found extremely hard.

[wales01man]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

HMOs are 3 or more not related tenants ?

[stevemLS]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Yes, it is 3 or more people forming more than one household and sharing toilet, bathroom or kitchen.

I still don't understand the tenancy, a tenancy by its nature must give exclusive use of at least part of the house, does it define your bedroom as yours and the rest of the house as "common parts".

I do understand your motivation which is, it seems to me, noble. I suppose if you were to pay your chunk of it (can you) then your housemate will suffer no detriment. I don't believe liability orders are reported to credit reference agencies.

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

OK - must go and do housework - will look in again this evening. But this is the scenario our son has a property. Using last year's council tax just to give an example. House not divided into flats so sharing kitchen, bathroom, etc. Two separate agreements drawn up as existing long term tenant wanted his friend to come and stay as he had an accident at work then on Disability. Think this was in the September 2012 when our son agreed, did not think anymore about it, as permanent tenant was paying Council Tax. He just thought temporary until second tenant could be re-housed. Time went on and son had put it to back of mind wasn't really aware of HMO and working away.

April 2013 Council Tax demand to him as house now HMO plus backdated from September - did put up a fight but ended up having to pay (installments). So he evicted tenant to make Council hurry up and get him suitable accommodation that he was still waiting for. Also he had enough of HMO rules and did not want CT to pay because increasing rent for someone who can't pay wasn't an option.

(If it would help I can try and find letters from Council saying why house is now HMO.)

UPDATE: Dragged out letter March 2014 couldn't get on with housework. Son was still arguing with Council and I quote from their 'final' letter -

'The benefit team have confirmation of rents which is signed by you for two tenants at this address of which are receiving housing benefit. As you are receiving rent from two tenants which is being paid by our benefits team we consider this address to be a house of multiple occupancy and therefore as landlord you are responsible for the council tax.'