Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

I'm awaiting new contracts from landlord, individual ones.
Already have the letter prepared to appeal decision to the council first, then the courts if that fails.

Soon as I have more I'll post.

Seems all very one sided to me.
They summons me to the court over a disputed debt, but disputed debts are not a defense against a liability order.
I'm told the magistrate has no power to rule on anything other than "am I the liable person, yes or no?"
If I am, that's it.
That order gives the council permission/authority to send bailiffs and whatever else they want to do, on a disputed bill....

What happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
How do they have the right?
Did I sign a credit agreement with my council when I moved here 12 years ago?
What gives the council the right to take 12 months payment in advance in the first place? Where are my terms and conditions?

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

gmleo - good luck. Did you read the Similar Thread in box below? Headed Liability Order? Seems to have landed on Landlord there.

Also!!! Just googled and found this - I am completely baffled, however, I am thinking that my son's council could be wrong regarding HMO BUT correct on Council Tax and he has to pay when reading this - http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Advice+...counciltax.htm

So..... maybe you need to read 'Are the residents always liable? Maybe your landlady could put herself in the position of our son and has to pay. Just a thought.

Here is an extract - but you will need to read in depth obviously. It does talk about joint tenancy, etc, etc

Are the residents always liable?
In some special cases the owner, not the residents, has to pay the council tax. These are:

dwellings occupied by more than one household, where the residents pay rent separately for different parts of the dwelling and where the households perhaps share cooking or washing facilities, for example, some hostels, nurses’ homes or groups of bed-sits;

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Thanks Mrs C.
I'll read the link later today, still have much to do with work.

I don't want my landlord to be faced with the bill, I'm happy to pay it if I owe it.
Just I want them to prove that I owe it, I don't believe I do, at least not all of it. Until I have my accounts, how can either of us know?
It's going to be close, but even if I get an award of £7 per week, that halves the demand of almost £2K.

If I could point to my landlords being liable in the hierarchy list, as opposed to my housemate, then that should nullify the liability order, in theory.
Reality is, I'm likely just wasting my time and should pay it and concentrate on proving them wrong after the fact and claim it back.
Which is exactly what the Council want me to do.

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

gmleo - Will leave all this research now but just say thank you for raising all these thoughts in my head. Have a letter ready for son when he comes home for Council and if we at least get an apology for calling his house an HMO it will be something.

I think they have got it pretty well sewn up though - see in red my notes - from another article I found. Good Luck!!! It is so time consuming these battles - your work is more important and the midnight oil is often burnt trying to prove a point.

The owner of the property will have to pay the Council Tax if:

• No one is living there
• It is a residential care or nursing home
• It is occupied by a religious community or minister of religion
• It is only occupied by domestic service staff
• It is only occupied by asylum seekers
• It is a House in Multiple Occupation, that is, it contains a number (do not say how many) of people who:
  • Do not form a single household
  • Pay rent for different parts of the property (i.e. bedsits or bedrooms)
  • Share common facilities (bathroom, kitchen etc.)
  
  
• Sole or Joint Tenants of the property do not have access to the whole property - for example, the owner keeps one room locked for their own belongings or keeps the garage locked to store items. (Does this help some tenants/landlords?)

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Latest: Awaiting a letter from Court/Council saying they're arranging yet another court hearing for Oct 2014.
What for, I don't know yet.
Either I've quashed the first decision, based on having individual contracts, or they're calling us back to explain why we had them before and didn't mention them.
In an email from the Council they explained that if my housemate is not liable and I do not pay, then they'll chase my landlord.
I don't give a damn about any of that, I just wanted to make sure that they didn't rope my housemate into this when she's already paid her half and is struggling as much as I am with money lately as we're both recently self employed.
This is not about me not wanting to pay, it's about me paying when I know the bill is accurate.

I've finished my first years accounts and sent them to a certified accountant.
Awaiting the final figures, but it seems very low profit, 8-10K tops.
This in itself means the council owe me money for the last year, their figures are wrong, always have been, as I've repeatedly told them.
This is Hammersmith Council btw, bunch of slimey crooks, every one of them.
They're chasing me for Council tax, yet they owe me between £3,300 and £5,500 depending on my final profit.

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

A guy from my local Council shared some facts with me at my first court summons that I found very interesting.

My local Council sends out 2,500 council tax summons a month.
Of those 2,500, maybe 150 will turn up to court.

Those 150 are taken to a back room and bombarded into making an agreement to pay what the Council says they owe, even if they don't owe.

Of those 150 only 4 stick to their guns and make it to the magistrate.

I was one of those 4, and got a last minute reprieve.

Doing some basic math - £86 costs are added to the bill.

Which is a nice £215,000 profit, in one day.

From my perspective the whole event from summons to hearing screamed "giant council cash cow", with enforcement threatened by being in the court building.

He cited attachment to earning order, bailiffs, deduction from benefits as methods of getting the council tax from me that is clearly in dispute and clearly their error from day one.

None of those threats can be carried out without a court order, which I must break!

The reality was/is, not one person's name was on the chalkboard to see a magistrate, you would have to fight though the bureaucracy of the Council just to get your name listed on the board to see a magistrate/judge.

What is this £86 cost all about then, if not court costs?

The summons is presented in a way that it looks like an official magistrates summons, with court costs.
Upon close inspection, it is not that... very sneaky.

Just found the whole thing staggering in their blatant greed, and total lack of caring, they simply don't give a damn, just want money, even if it's theft or illegal, they, they simply don't care.

Now, I think this is fraud, on a grand scale.
I've sent all this to my MP, who hasn't even had the decency to reply.

There is only so much I will take before I explode.

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Hi gmleo

I can understand how you feel.

Basically all we ask as customers is that what has been calculated is correct. After my last communication on here my son sent a letter to the Council, enclosing a copy of the GOV printout regarding 3 or more is HMO, etc. We sent it via e-mail and post. No -reply! He then sent a further three e-mails asking that it is receiving their attention. So he called in last Thursday to the offices as he had to go in that direction and handed in another copy. He asked for a signed Comp Slip to prove it had been received. He was told the person that he sent it to, head of Finance, is on holiday and is snowed under! They can't even seem to produce an automatic reply on e-mail to say 'out of office until.....'

He also had a date written for the instalments and because he was paying it a few days earlier to make sure it was paid on time, via online, he has had a recent letter saying his new dates to pay are his dates of payment.

He also a few years ago had a letter sent by them to say he owed nothing. During that time demands were raised again which then came as a Court Order. He ignored them thinking it was a mistake as his tenant also had Council Tax Bills showing credits paid by Benefits for those exact periods (son wasn't living there.) Some time later my son asked for a copy of this letter with the approx. date, that he managed to loose!, they have completely ignore this request and said it was a letter saying he owed it with copy enclosed. It was not enclosed!

I just cannot see how see how, given your case as well as our son's, show this is all run in a professional manner and as you say it is as though they push all the threats out without any thought. It is as you say like a giant cash cow with Court Costs, Baliffs, etc all at each end if they get a chance with the Council's help.

Can't remember if I said in one letter they said that my son had not told them something when he came into the office. He had to write back and say I did and in fact I had put it in writing before the meeting.

So good luck - keep us updated. I will let you know what my son is told. We too are going to take this up with our MP once we get their answer as to what is an HMO in their eyes e.g. two people. Then we will ask the MP why the Gov Info states 3 people.

P.S. You say that the Council say in their e-mail - 'if your housemate isn't liable, etc.' Don't they know who they are putting their bills out to and on what grounds?

(I just go to sleep composing letters - saying to myself surely some of these people cannot be competent. I think I said at one stage my son was sent out the 'proof' he requested and the 'new person' sent out page 1 only out of 3 pages. Also only page 2 of 3 from another set of files. He was told he shouldn't have been given them when he asked them to explain them.)

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Latest:
The council have requested my landlord respond to their questions, provide them with contracts etc... and are disputing this property is a HMO. Despite there being only 2 tenants, with separate bedrooms, bathrooms, separate tenancy agreements.
The landlord replied to the councils first letter saying "the tenants are dealing with this and it's not a HMO as stated by Housing Act 2004."
The council have responded saying the landlord is incorrect, that for Council Tax purposes they look to 'HMO The Council Tax (Liability for Owners) Regulations 1994'.
Which according to that, this is a HMO and the landlord may be liable.

Extract from letter.

For the purpose of Council Tax liability, a 'House in Multiple Occupation' is: Class C: a dwelling

(a) Was originally constructed or subsequently adapted for occupation by persons whop do not constitute a single household or

(b) Is inhabited by a person who, or by two or more persons each of whom is either -
(i) Is a tenant of, or has a license to occupy, part only of the dwelling , or
(ii) Has a license to occupy, but is not liable (whether alone or jointly with other persons) to pay rent or a license in respect of the dwelling as a whole.

Then they ask if the liability is transferred to my landlords name, how would they like to pay?

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Thank you for keeping me updated. Needed a quiet few mins to read your message. Is sounds as though they do not know their own rules doesn't it? To ask then how the landlady would like to pay if she is liable ????? Do they really know what they are doing?

As my son says, given his waiting for an answer, they waste no time sending out a Court Summons.

This end our son's letter with enclosed Gov Leaflet, dated 29 July, saying 3 tenants for an HMO has still not been answered.

It is as though they are refusing to answer so he took in a copy into the office and asked for it to be signed for on 21st August.

About two weeks later an email saying the manager, who he has been dealing with, said she is no longer dealing with his case and a colleague is taking over.

So sent an email the other evening saying because this has not been dealt with I feel it now needs to be escalated to a higher level. It is after all only one question that needs to be answered and this was requested on the 29 July 2014.

Let's keep each other updated.

P.S. Replied to this e-mail in a hurry - hope it makes sense. Will look in later to see if I missed anything. Good Luck and hope your contracts are going OK.

[gmleo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Tell me about it.
The council are still demanding payment from myself and my housemate, they say until such time as the court quashes the incorrect liability that we are still jointly liable.
At the very same time, they're chasing my landlady, a month before the decision by the court has even been made.
WTF!
They seem to make up the rules as they go along, and no accountability.
Bunch of cowboys.

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

I am wondering if an Ombudsman could take it over? Mind you they are probably stacked high with complaints to go through. Yes - they have to collect Council Tax but surely it should not be complicated no business could treat their customers like this just with our son it has been -

1. You owe nothing and it was put in a letter - which he lost - so couldn't produce it when the following year demands started coming. He actually thought it was a mistake as his Benefit Tenant living in his property showed him his Council Tax Bill each March (in the tenants name with zero balance).

2. A few years down line Court Summons so son asked for copy of his letter he couldn't find. They said it was enclosed - but it wasn't. Just said he still owed the money. (Anyway I have written most of this before.)


3. Now this year son is paying debts that he cannot plus the one year they said his property was an HMO as he had now had two tenants. (that is when he was prepared to go into Court and Council Clerk said go to Office which he did.) They said he owed x pounds and now he is paying it off.

4. Then came another demand and they said he had more to pay because the debt he was paying was for earlier years (which he had disputed) and not the most recent when they have just found out he had another tenant that they didn't know about. So we wrote with the enclosed letter from a few months early saying he would go to Court and bring the cheque for the year the second tenant, giving his name, moved in. So why sitting in their office and his tenant also came with him - he wasn't denying anything.

5. So now the letter sent in July asking one simple question why is his property classed as an HMO given the enclosed Government printout? Hence no reply.


In the meantime the date for payment were the 28th of each month and he has paid it a few das in advance to make sure it arrives on time. Now he has had a revised letter with the dates of when his payment has one in e.g. 26th of month. So I guess if he paid on say 27/28 he would get a summons to say he has failed to pay on time.

Surely they are accountable to someone?

[Mrs Constant Worry]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

14 November 2016

Once again l want to say thank you for the past support from you all. I thought l would update just to say that son has had to pay Council Tax.

We fought and the head of department said they had changed their rules on the management of the system to avoid errors in future. He also offered for the case to go through to a Tribunal so my son let them just in case it turned out in his favour. It didnt.

Basically if it is only 2 tenants on separate contracts it means the landlord has to pay the Council Tax and it is still classed as an HMO. It doesn't make sense but they say their system is different than the government website for HMO and it is 3 or more tenants. Just so confusing but we battled to the end but have no given up. Just thought this info just might help someone else.

Lesson learnt doing a favour meant he was worse off financially e.g. income from two tenants and paying council tax than just having his one long term tenant.

[Milo]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Your determination is awesome !!!

Thank you for updating the thread.

[lgfa92]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

Council Tax has it's own definition of a HMO compared to licensing purposes (it caused me no end of headaches when I worked in council tax) - for England the definition of a Council Tax HMO is in the Council Tax (liability for owners) regulations 1992 (as amended).

I was having the exact same discussion last night - Council websites regarding HMO licensing are usually quite good for showing the HMO definitions etc- the Council Tax side less.

Craig

[seduraed]

Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

As there are only two people present it is Not an HMO the definition is "Three or more persons forming two or more households."
The are special rules if the landlord is resident.