Council CEO

[labman]

Re: Council CEO

It has to be said the LA would have to be pretty damn stupid to claim they have a LO if they haven't. i'm not aware of this happening, but never say never....:beagle:

[Crazy council]

Re: Council CEO

Hi

am a bit of a specialist when it comes to councils doing this to people.

All you need is this "4) Supply me with a copy of all transactions that have gone through my account.

Read more at: Council CEO - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

"

and ask for a copy of the related phone notes. Forget asking them to investigate because it will go to the same department ( collections and benefits ) to investigate. They will just waste your time and effort, then they will complaint that they have investigated it whe they have not.


On the transaction list, make sure you get a full one not an edited one, It has input-output dates on and reason codes. They are easy for the counxcil to produce and its usualy a good idea to ask for a few years back lists as well.

Anyone reading this thats questioning a councils actions in relation to liability orders and baillifs, should ask for the same things, the full transaction listing and the related notes.

good look, crazyc

[bluebottle]

Re: Council CEO

It has to be said the LA would have to be pretty damn stupid to claim they have a LO if they haven't. i'm not aware of this happening, but never say never....:beagle:

There has been a case, Labman. It's currently at the pre-action stage. And from the evidence I've seen, it's pretty serious. The LA and bailiff company involved could be facing substantial civil damages and the certificated bailiffs involved could be facing arrest on warrant.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council CEO

LGO Adjudication on the Levying On Low-Value Goods has now been removed.

[A54]

Re: Council CEO

I think in Cards Down's case with bailiff's on his tail, the best action is to get the alleged issuing court to confirm in writing if such an order is recorded on file. if the court comes back saying they've got no records of such an order...

get legal advice asap.

call the Police the next time the bailiffs visit (for acting without appropriate authority)

contact the lgo (they'll skip normal complaints procedure and get involved immediately in such cases)


Although not an expert on LO's I've learned alot about them but don't want to hijack cards down thread. I will post something soon on my thread.

Bluebottle, I think there's going to be another case involving an LA that didn't get 'proper' LO's, has the case you mention got to court yet?

[labman]

Re: Council CEO

Does any LA get 'proper' LO's?

[A54]

Re: Council CEO

Does any LA get 'proper' LO's?

Apparently yes, a debtor challenged the authenticity of an LO in an appeal court, the judge said:

'...there is no difficulty about the orders that have been produced. Once they bear the seal they are admissible without further proof, (see CPR 2.6(3)). Records of hearings in Magistrates' Court are provable by certified copies, reg 68 of the Magistrates' Courts Rules, 1981.'

In other words the LO's in the above case bore a court seal and certified copies were available from the issuing court.

the case was Smolen v Tower Hamlets April 2006, judge was Peter Smith J, Chancery division

[bluebottle]

Re: Council CEO

I think in Cards Down's case with bailiff's on his tail, the best action is to get the alleged issuing court to confirm in writing if such an order is recorded on file. if the court comes back saying they've got no records of such an order...

get legal advice asap.

call the Police the next time the bailiffs visit (for acting without appropriate authority)

contact the lgo (they'll skip normal complaints procedure and get involved immediately in such cases)


Although not an expert on LO's I've learned alot about them but don't want to hijack cards down thread. I will post something soon on my thread.

Bluebottle, I think there's going to be another case involving an LA that didn't get 'proper' LO's, has the case you mention got to court yet?

Hi A54,

As I explained in an earlier post, an LO is an order that says a person owes an LA unpaid Council Tax and is legally-liable to pay it. The LO also enables the LA to enforce payment, including the use of bailiffs.

Basically, if an LA does not have an LO, enforcement of Council Tax arrears is difficult. If bailiffs are engaged, the LO is their authority to act and if there isn't an LO in existence, they are acting unlawfully, if not illegally, in the absence of any other legal order.

The case I've mentioned is currently at what can be described as "Pre-Information" stage. This means that it is possible that an Information will be laid before a District Judge or Deputy District Judge in the Magistrates Court, due to the circumstances of the case. An Information is a pre-requisite for the issuing of a Summons or an Arrest or Search Warrant. From the evidence I have seen, what the LA and bailiff company have done is serious.

In the OP's case, bailiffs have engaged in levying unauthorised charges and levying on goods the law does not permit to be levied upon. If it transpires that no LO exists, both the LA and bailiff company will be in trouble and trying to explain illegal behaviour to a District Judge or Deputy District Judge in a Magistrates Court isn't as easy as it is in a civil court. The standard of evidence and burden of proof is a lot stricter and both sides have to prove their case.

BB

[A54]

Re: Council CEO

Thanks BB,

I understood your advice. in Cards Down situation, I still think the best course of action is to demand to see an original of the LO that gives the bailiffs the authority to act especially if any of the charges are suspicious.

The mere fact he questions the LO and asks to see it (as per his entitlement) would/should alert the bailiffs that Cards Down is aware of his rights and perhaps they will behave.

Applying for an SAR would similarly send the 'right' signal.

In my case the bailiff visits suddenly stopped when I asked to see a copy of the LO, I had no clue as to why at the time.

Also its my understanding the bailiffs cannot act on a photocopy LO, it must be a wet signed copy that they should be able to produce on demand.

Also, if the bailiffs have definitely added fraudulent charges and refuse to refund him, CD has the option of reporting the bailiff to the court that issued his bailiff certificate for 'not being a fit person to be a bailiff'.


best. a54.

[cards down]

Re: Council CEO

I have the following details from the Council regarding 2 LO's. The LO numbers, the date issued and the sum for each LO, I also have a summons for one of the LO's that ties in with the date of issue.

[A54]

Re: Council CEO

I have the following details from the Council regarding 2 LO's. The LO numbers, the date issued and the sum for each LO, I also have a summons for one of the LO's that ties in with the date of issue.

hi cards down,

you got nothing to lose by writing to the magistrate court that issued the LO and asking them confirm if the hearing took place, name of the judge/jp who made the order, the exact order that was granted and the hmcs number.

Quote the LO number you have and any other details you have such as date, etc.

Also check the dates on the final demand/reminder, the summons and the LO. The regulations state the LA cannot issue a summons until at least 14 days after the final demand and they can't obtain an LO until another 14 days after the summons was served.

[cards down]

Re: Council CEO

Hi A54

Would this be a request for this information? Who would I make it the attention of? Also would I need the same information from the Council for cross reference?

[A54]

Re: Council CEO

Hi Cards down,

as per bluebottles advice:

"The best thing to do is to write to the Court Manager at the magistrates' court and ask them to confirm the date the LO was granted to the LA and which judge/JPs granted it"

I would also add a request for the hmcs case number

you have a legal entitlement to see the court documents under the magistrate's court act, I can't remember the exact regulation, will post it up when I find it but a judge said:

Records of hearings in Magistrates' Court are provable by certified copies, reg 68 of the Magistrates' Courts Rules, 1981

Please check to ensure that there have been no amendments or changes to this regulation before quoting it.

try and phrase the letter in a way that avoids them answering with something like 'you will need to contact the LA to verify the info you requested', they need to confirm it from their own records.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council CEO

I have the following details from the Council regarding 2 LO's. The LO numbers, the date issued and the sum for each LO, I also have a summons for one of the LO's that ties in with the date of issue.

You need to check these against court records to confirm what you have been told is correct. This is for your own protection.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council CEO

Thanks BB,

I understood your advice. in Cards Down situation, I still think the best course of action is to demand to see an original of the LO that gives the bailiffs the authority to act especially if any of the charges are suspicious.

The mere fact he questions the LO and asks to see it (as per his entitlement) would/should alert the bailiffs that Cards Down is aware of his rights and perhaps they will behave.

Applying for an SAR would similarly send the 'right' signal.

In my case the bailiff visits suddenly stopped when I asked to see a copy of the LO, I had no clue as to why at the time.

Also its my understanding the bailiffs cannot act on a photocopy LO, it must be a wet signed copy that they should be able to produce on demand.

Also, if the bailiffs have definitely added fraudulent charges and refuse to refund him, CD has the option of reporting the bailiff to the court that issued his bailiff certificate for 'not being a fit person to be a bailiff'.


best. a54.

Form 4 Complaints are a "last resort" measure. Bailiffs are now going into court with barristers in tow and being awarded massive costs, i.e. in excess of £10,000, against complainants.

You are right about an LO. Any bailiff who can't produce this on demand is likely to get a Size 11 hobnail boot in a certain part of their anatomy if they are harassing debtors.