Urgent advice required, please!

[titch2k6]

Hi all.

Thought we had got the situation with CT all sorted, but seems to have leaped up and bit us in the rear again with a 7am call from a Jacob's bailiff with a 24hr removal notice this morning.

Will try to cut a long story short, but get all the facts in.

We had a number of arrears with our CT over the past few years. All of these went for collection with Jacobs, apart from one which was paid through an AoE order.

We were lead to believe that the last payment agreement we made with Jacobs was the final outstanding amount and was genuinely in belief that this was made up of two amounts. This payment agreement was completed in October 31st, 2011 and the standing order was cancelled to Jacobs.

In December, a few days before christmas, we received a letter from Jacobs stating that our payment agreement had been revolked for the sum of £540 as payments had not been maintained. I immediately got on to Jacobs head office and asked them what the £540 was for, as we were under the impression that all arrears had been paid. We were informed that this was not the case. We explained the situation with regards the payment and explained that as far as we were aware, there was no payment agreement in place for this amount. The Jacobs lady advisor could NOT find any record of an agreement for this amount on their system whilst I was talking to them.

It was at this point that I asked for proof of the amount from Jacobs, but was informed that I would have to contact the council directly for this information, which I did on the 23rd December, 2011. I requested charge years, payments received and outstanding monies due information from the council offices, which I am still awaiting for to-date. As far as I am concerned, unti I receive proof of the amount owed, this alleged amount is in default status. I have no problem paying the amount if it is owed - I just want proof that I owe it.

I have been in constant contact with Jacobs head office throughout all of this, explaining what I have done to try and rectify the issue and to their end, Jacobs have been recording this information.

This morning, I had a bailiff beat down my door at 7am, waking the entire family, including my 3 year old, to remove goods from the property for non-payment. I had a talk to the bailiff and tried to calmly explain the situation, but he would not listen, stating that it was not his problem. I told him that I would be seeking legal advise, but he said that would not stop him removing goods and conducting his duties. He has left me 24 hours to arrange payment, which has now risen to £665, before he returns and removes goods from the property tomorrow.

I still do not have proof of the amount owed and I certainly do not have £665 available to pay off this debt immediately to prevent removal.

I need sound advice on how to handle this situation. Have thought of filing a N245 form to stay the warrant, but it will not go through the court in time and I do not think for one moment that the bailiff will give me time for this to go through.

I just don't know what to do.....

[EXC]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Bump.

Anyone?

[labman]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Initially I would send this:



Ref: Account No: 123456

Dear Sir

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

This includes:
a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.
b - the reason for the fee.
c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.
d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.
e - the date of the Certification.


Also please provide a full statement of account.

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

I require this information within 14 days.




In the meantime, contact the council and explain what has happened. Make sure you ask for the CT Collections Department. Ask if they will take the debt back and you will negotiate with them as you feel you have made all relevant payments. They are unlikely to do this, but be polite and insistent and see if you can get anywhere.



If they refuse, which is likely, post back up and we'll take it from there.

[Bill-K]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Just looking in, if I may, as this is DEFFO not my area, but we seem to be getting a lot of bailif activity right now. Isn't January such a HAPPY month ? !!!

Is there anything we can do to help titch over the next 24 hours, as it seems that she is likely to be invaded by a bunch of thugs who intend to forcibly break into her home with no apparent lawful authority ?

All I can suggest is that she sends all other occupants away somewhere and barricades herself in, and dials 999 on her mobile if they break in. But that seems so drastic. Is there owt she can do NOW to stop this ?

[labman]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Hi again Titch,

Sorry, I was literally just going out this morning when I saw this post, and wanted to get something up to give you a way forward.

Are you sure they have a warrant. In order to be able to break in, they MUST go back to the court to ask permission to break in - this very rarely happens and is a power that is only ever used as a last resort. I would be very surprised with your repayment record if they would allow them to break in.

If they do turn up, do not let them in. Keep the door locked and windows shut. If you must talk to them do it from an upstairs window or through the letterbox, and if possible record or video what is said. Make sure you ask to see the bailiff's identity, make a note of his name, the firm, any number, and the court in which he was certificated. Whatever he says, do not let him in.

If he has behaved as you say, use that with the council saying he is breaching the National Standards for Enforcement Agents, and as they are vicariously liable his actions are leaving them open to litigation.

The main thing is not to panic. It sounds as though the bailiffs have applied a load of unfair charges and I would be 99% sure you do not owe anything like this sum of money. Don't let them in and don't pay them a penny for the moment.

Remember, as a general rule if a bailiff opens his mouth, he is lying! They are terrible liars and should not be believed. They work on the premise that they can scare you into paying - don't let them win.

Hope this helps a bit, and sorry again I was in such a rush this morning.

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Hi again Titch,

Are you sure they have a warrant.

It is a 24 hour bailiff removal notice. It clearly states on it that goods may be removed whether we are in at the property or not. Would submit an N245 to the court to suspend, but just not got the time to get it through the court as he is due back in the morning at around 7am. Unfortunately, I will be on my way to Scotland at this time (I can not get time from work) and my partner will be at home by herself with the kids.

[labman]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Did you contact the council as suggested this morning?
Have you had a CCJ for this? If not a N245 is of no use.
Have they been into your home previously or levied on anything previously?
You should still not let them into your home under any circumstances and do not sign anything.

[Guest]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

I still do not have proof of the amount owed and I certainly do not have £665 available to pay off this debt immediately to prevent removal.

I just don't know what to do.....

Your only trump card is to get the council return the case back into town hall administration by exposing the bailiffs misfeascant behaviour. He has over-charged you with his fees.

Telephone the council and ask for the amount owing as it is on the liability order.

Then start the formal complaints procedure.

[HEAD OF REVENUES]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Council tax [ACCOUNT NO.] & [amount AS SHOWN ON THE LIABILITY ORDEER]

I make this formal complaint because I received bailiff from you on [DATE] collecting the aforementioned Council tax and demanded the sum of [AMOUNT].

The bailiff indiscriminately over-charged me with his fees, that are not compliant with prescribed Council Tax enforcement regulations. This may constitute an offence under the 2006 Fraud Act.

To resolve this complaint:

1. Return the case to council administration.
2. The council makes the necessary investigation why I was over-charged.
3. Do the necessary work to ensure the person responsible for over charging me is made accountable under both, civil law and criminal law and the investigation is made objectively and professionally.
4. Make the necesssary complaint to the appropriate court regarding the bailiffs fitness to hold a cerificate. I enclose a part-completed Form 4 for you.

I will make the repayments for what I lawfully owe in afforable monthly instalmants of [AMOUNT] starting on [DATE].

If you are unable, or unwilling to resolve this complaint in full, please mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

Yours Sincerely.

[NAME]
Encs. copy of:
Bailiffs document.
Part completed Form 4
1st instalament cheque.

As for the bailiffs: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=32490



Have the council make an official complaint as well.

Get a blank Form 4 here http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=32516

In the Details of Complaint field.

The bailiff attended the taxpayers home [NAME AND ADDRESS OF TAXPAYER] on [DATE] collecting unpaid council tax, and indiscrimately charged [HIM/HER/THEM] fees totalling [AMOUNT inc VAT] which is not compliant with the prescribed schedule set by Council Tax enforcement regulations. No distress has been levied on goods.

Complete the bailiffs details including, the name of the court the bailiffs certifcate was issued: You can get it here: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=32478

Where it sdays Your Name, enter HEAD OF REVENUES

Address: the Town Hall address.

Now send everything to the council.

[labman]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Hi Titch,

Do you have any update on this? You've had some good advice on this thread today. I've drip fed mine in, in the hope you would respond. Happy Contrails has now said much the same and the next steps in one post.

It would be good to know you've read this, and whether you have any remaining questions. :tinysmile_grin_t:

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Hi all.

Yes, thanks for the advice all. It is a case that I am currently out of time. I had to go work today and could not get any time off to sort this out. I have phoned the bailiff and appealed for an extension to the end of February, which, incidently, was his suggestion during his visit this morning. If I can get an extension till February, I can get this all sorted. Unfortunately, I can't raise the bailiff on the number he left me.

As a walking agreement was signed many months ago, the bailiff has the right to forceful entry, as I understand it, to remove goods. I am on my way to Scotland at 0530 and my partner will be working all day too, so no-one will be at home if the bailiff comes (apart from the dog!).

I do not know where the additional £120 fees have come from either. Very excesive if you ask me - but there again, I'm going to be biased!!

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Will follow the complaint anyway, but not too sure if will have time for it to be actioned on or not. Will have to try and see what I can do. Will keep you all updated on this because if they do come and take items, I will be complaining and sueing because I believe they have breached at least 3 lawful Acts by their actions including Administration of Justice Act (1970) and the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999).
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Did you contact the council as suggested this morning?

No. I have unfortunately been at work all day and missed the council offices when I got back because they have the luxury of a half four finish......

Have you had a CCJ for this? If not a N245 is of no use.

I am not aware of a CCJ on this........

Have they been into your home previously or levied on anything previously?

Nothing has been levied previously as we have always maintained the payments due on the agreements made. As previously mentioned, a Walking Possession has been signed a few months ago.

[Guest]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Will follow the complaint anyway, but not too sure if will have time for it to be actioned on or not.

Follow this: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=32490

I believe they have breached at least 3 lawful Acts by their actions including Administration of Justice Act (1970)

Did you catch the bailiff saying he had a document that had some official character when he knew it does not?

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Did you catch the bailiff saying he had a document that had some official character when he knew it does not?

No.

But under Administration Of Justice Act, Part V(40)1:

"A person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under a contract, he-

(a)harasses the other with demands for payment which, in respect of their frequency or the manner or occasion of making any such demand, or of any threat or publicity by which any demand is accompanied, are calculated to subject him or members of his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;"

Also:

"(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine of not more than £100, and on a second or subsequent conviction to a fine of not more than £400."

[Guest]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Doesn't apply, I'm afraid.

Council tax is a statutory debt, not a contractual debt.

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

The named bailiff on my paperwork, who incidently is also named as BAILIFF IN CHARGE, is not registered on the Justice Certified Bailiff Register under Jacobs or any other company. his surname does not come up on search at all. Guess I will have to call Justice to complete my Form 4 (or follow your advice Happy and phone the bailiff and ask what court to send the Form 4 to!!).

Just out of interest, bailiff did not show up today after serving the 24 hour removal notice yesterday at 0700..........