Urgent advice required, please!

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Reply from the Council with regards email complaint - postal is still on it's way:

Dear Mr *****

Unfortunately the Council are unable to investigate your complaint as this relates purely to the Bailiffs. We can confirm that your complaint has been forwarded to the Bailiffs with a request that they respond to you direct regarding your concerns.[/font]

Regards


Customer Comment Account
Newark & Sherwood District Council
Telephone: 01636 650000
Email: comments@nsdc.info

So, they just place it back into the hands of the bailiffs for whom the complaint is about. Figures..........

Wonder how it ended up at Customer Comment Account when sent to Chief Executive? Did not even follow the letter of the complaint and mark it up as requested for Ombundsman follow up........

[bluebottle]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Get a gun?

Make sure you use a silencer.

[bluebottle]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Which they may or may not do; they may aver that it's "a civil matter" and hence not something with which they should become involved, rather like the way that wife-beating was once described as "a matrimonial dispute" and only to be investigated if the husband struck his wife with a rod, staff or cane thicker than the width of his thumb.

Some policemen have even sided with the bailiff against the householder.

I have read reports elsewhere of a certain certificated bailiff who, to protect the guilty and to make it less likely that the oaf could sue this site for defamation, here goes by the sobriquet of "Mr Gruesome". Those reports told the tale of him seeking to seize a debtor's motor-car which had been parked on the debtor's drive. To impede him until the matter could be resolved peacefully, the debtor's partner locked herself inside the car and ignored all of the bailiff's entreaties and/or threats to leave. There was at least one policeman in attendance, presumably to prevent a breach of the peace, but he did precisely nothing to stop Mr Gruesome from taking matters at least one step too far.

Getting frustrated with the impasse, Mr Gruesome took an implement - possibly a wheel brace - from the boot of his own car and started to bang it on a side window of the debtor's car until the window shattered, showering the occupant with bits of broken glass. He then reached inside and forcibly dragged the shocked and horrified woman from the car.

I repeat - the policeman who was present did precisely nothing to stop this.


That is hardly difficult to imagine and, of course, such colourful expressions could lead to an appropriate charge for a summary offence.

One might wonder if questioning the parentage of the arresting officer was meant as a sort of appeal for camaraderie from someone whose own legitimacy was rather doubtful.


Do you really think so?

If you do, then you clearly have not read the disgraceful and draconian provisions in Part 3 of the Courts, Tribunals and Enforcement Act 2007 (link) which, for neither a good nor a paltry reason, would have vastly increased the ability of an 'enforcement agent' to act as a jack-booted bully boy and, by and large, as a law unto himself. No commencement order for this section has yet been presented to Parliament and I devoutly pray that it never will, yet the statute still stands despite various politicians declaring that they will never use it.

Schedule 12 (link) makes such a pig's breakfast of the law that one must surely question the sanity of its authors. For example, at paragraph 14, it would give an 'enforcement agent' the right to use 'reasonable force' - without warrant - to enter any property where he 'reasonably believes' the debtor resides or carries on a trade or business.

Concisely, 'new' Labour took a bad law and sought to make it immeasurably worse.


He'll probably need it.

What you have described is the work of a neo-Marxist group named Common Purpose who have infiltrated government departments, police forces, local councils, schools and just about every other aspect of our lives. Why do you think the law is so draconian? It's called Corporate Fascism, which is a form of Marxism. Also, why do you think nothing seems to work these days? Common Purpose. Why do you think police officers do nothing to curb the abuses of corporations and, in some cases, have been found to be actively aiding and abetting them to undermine individuals' statutory and human rights? Common Purpose. Can I suggest you go onto YouTube, put "Brian Gerrish" into the search engine and watch the videos. You'll soon realise why things are the way they are.

I am what is known as an "old school" copper, even though I am now retired, and during my time on the force, nicking a bailiff who crossed the line was something you did, regardless of whether they had the right paperwork or not. As far as we were concerned, no-one was above the law. As you say, police officers, these days, just stand by and let bailiffs carry on regardless. The incident you described should have resulted in the bailiff's arrest for battery and criminal damage, irrespective of whether he had a right to seize the car or not.

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Just don't know what to do.......

Bailiff refuses to accept payment arrangement and Council don't want to know because it is a bailiff matter........

All I want to do is pay the f*****g bill!!

[ploddertom]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Did you ever ring the Council and find out the exact details of the Liability Order? Did you send off to the Bailiffs for a breakdown of their charges? The message you have from the Council at post 31 is a load of rubbish as the Council are ultimately responsible for what you owe and for the actions and charges of the Bailiff.

If you feel you are playing piggy in the middle then it is time for you to take control. In my view I would totally ignore the Bailiff and start to make payment direct to the Council via online banking, Council website or automated phone service. You will need the CT Ref No for the year you are paying. You can even take cash into the Council Office and pay over the counter - if they refuse this you politely ask for the name & position of the employee as you will be reporting them for failure to accept payment. You may have to budget extra for any lawful Bailiff fees.

You may also involve your local Councillor(s) advising them of non-cooperation from both Council and their appointed contractor. If they refuse or are reluctant then go over their head to the Leader of the Council and/or his opposite number.

If you do pay direct then make sure you pay a certain sum on a regular basis - £10 every Thursday for example. This shows a willingness to pay and should the Council want to take things further then they may have a problem as you can show regular payments. The Council will also advise the Bailiffs of each payment you make.

If the Bailiff does return then you are under no obligation to allow him back in regardless of whether he has gained previous peaceful entry. You say he has made a levy on your goods - excuse me for going over old ground but:
a - when was this done
b - how many visits has he made to you since
c - how many instalments have you made since
d - can you list exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure the goods seized.

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Did you ever ring the Council and find out the exact details of the Liability Order?

Yes we did. The LO was issued for £562.50 and the bailiff is claiming £665.50. However, we received a letter from Jacob's head office on the 12/12/11 stating that the sum due was only £540.50.

Did you send off to the Bailiffs for a breakdown of their charges?

It is in the process of being done to gather all relevant information.

The message you have from the Council at post 31 is a load of rubbish as the Council are ultimately responsible for what you owe and for the actions and charges of the Bailiff.

Just out of interest then, why do they then clearly post up on their website that they will not get involved in complaints against Bailiff's and especially complaints with regards bailiffs fees?

If the Bailiff does return then you are under no obligation to allow him back in regardless of whether he has gained previous peaceful entry. You say he has made a levy on your goods - excuse me for going over old ground but:
a - when was this done
b - how many visits has he made to you since
c - how many instalments have you made since
d - can you list exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure the goods seized.

The Walking Possession was completed around August/ September last year - do not know exact date as no paperwork was left with us. This was prior to a payment agreement being made with the bailiff's, which we beleived, included the amount in question.

Since then, the bailiff only made one more visit on the 19/01/12 to issue the 24 Hour Removal Notice. Between this, there was a letter issued by Jacob's head office on the 12/12/11, notifying us of a broken arrangement, which even by Jacob's admission, did not exist.

There have been no installments paid since the bailiff's visit as I have had no funds and been awaiting receipt of wages on the 27th of this month. Now these have been received, I will be taking your advice and making a payment over the counter for £100.00 at our local payment office.

As to the goods on the list, again, I can not state exactly, as we never received a copy of the paperwork that was completed at the time. I think, however, that it includes the TV (which has been replaced during the period for new model, which is on hire purchase. The original TV on the list is still on the property, but inoperative), a PC and related furniture (which is currently a business asset as I registered my own company with Companies House last year), 2 piece setee, coffee table, Xbox 360 and the family car (Ford Fiest 1998).

[Guest]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Unfortunately the Council are unable to investigate your complaint as this relates purely to the Bailiffs. We can confirm that your complaint has been forwarded to the Bailiffs with a request that they respond to you direct regarding your concerns.

You need to reply to that.

[HEAD OF REVENUES]
[NAME OF] Council
[ADDRESS & POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear sir.

FORMAL COMPLAINT - letter #2

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

Re: Council tax [ACCOUNT NO.] & [amount AS SHOWN ON THE LIABILITY ORDER]

Thank you for your reply of [DATE] for which the comments have been noted.

Unfortunately, you have not complied with proper complaints procedure and did not confirm your resultion is final as requested.

Additionally, the council liable for its agents and therefore is expected to resolve the complaint.

Please resolve the complaint on all four points as previously requested in my formal complaint letter of [DATE] by 3pm of the [DATE IN 14 DAYS TIME].


Yours Sincerely.

[NAME]
Enc. copy of previous letter

Telephone the Local Government Ombudsman advice team and ask to escalate the complaint:

http://www.lgo.org.uk/making-a-complaint/

[bluebottle]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Some years ago, I made the (social) acquaintance of a certificated bailiff who, being white-haired, a bit portly and having a ruddy complexion, could give a passably convincing impression that he was suffering a heart attack!

He used that on numerous occasions to gain "peaceful entry" to people's dwellings; once inside, of course, he would miraculously recover.

I have no idea what happened to him, but I would like to believe that he tried that stunt once too often, suffered a real myocardiac infarction and perished as a result. :tinysmile_grin_t:

I'm surprised he didn't have his certification revoked for pulling this stunt. He should have suffered that at the very least. It would have probably brought on a real MI!

[ploddertom]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

It is their way of passing the buck - follow HC's complaint letter.[/COLOR]

The Walking Possession was completed around August/ September last year - do not know exact date as no paperwork was left with us. This was prior to a payment agreement being made with the bailiff's, which we beleived, included the amount in question.

Since then, the bailiff only made one more visit on the 19/01/12 to issue the 24 Hour Removal Notice. Between this, there was a letter issued by Jacob's head office on the 12/12/11, notifying us of a broken arrangement, which even by Jacob's admission, did not exist.

There have been no installments paid since the bailiff's visit as I have had no funds and been awaiting receipt of wages on the 27th of this month. Now these have been received, I will be taking your advice and making a payment over the counter for £100.00 at our local payment office.
Do you mean no instalments made since the Levy was made last year or from 19/01/12?

As to the goods on the list, again, I can not state exactly, as we never received a copy of the paperwork that was completed at the time. Something to ask the Council to provide if the Bailiffs are being obstructive. I think, however, that it includes the TV (which has been replaced during the period for new model, which is on hire purchase. The original TV on the list is still on the property, but inoperative), a PC and related furniture (which is currently a business asset as I registered my own company with Companies House last year), 2 piece setee, coffee table, Xbox 360 and the family car (Ford Fiest 1998).

Going off what you say above then my comments on the goods possibly seized are below. Please note I am not being disrespectful but am seeing things as if they were removed and sold at auction:
TV - obviously an old one and therefore worthless
PC - is it top of the range with large flat screen monitor, also he has to list each individual part - just saying PC is not enough and therefore can be disregarded.
Related Furniture - possible 3rd Party claim
2 Piece Settee - how old, do you have alternative seating and enough left for each member of the family to have their own seat. Possibly worthless
Coffee Table - unless made of solid wood will have little value or worthless
XBox 360 - is this the property of a child - if so exempt from seizure
Car - probably little value at auction due to age

I would contend that the goods seized will not satisfy:
1 - the Bailiffs fees and charges
2 - the costs of both removal & storage
3 - the costs of the auction
4 - the Auctioneers fee
5 - pay a proportion of the debt owing.
Therefore I would argue the Bailiff has made a levy on your goods solely to gain a financial advantage for himself & his company.

Please note the following for furnishings & electrical items:
Furniture and furnishings

Furniture or furnishings containing upholstery cannot be sold unless they comply with the Furniture and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) Regulations 1988. These specify the type of filling to be used and that the fabric should pass the 'cigarette and match' test. The fire safety regulations apply to new and second hand goods.

Furniture and furnishings in this context include

suites, chairs
beds, headboards, mattresses (remember that beds and bedding are exempt from seizure unless taken from a retailer or manufacturer)
sofabeds, futons, other convertibles
nursery furniture
garden furniture which is suitable for use in the home
pillows, scatter cushions and seat pads
loose and stretch covers for furniture.

You may seize items of upholstered furniture or furnishings if at least one of the following conditions is satisfied

the item bears a label stating that it complies with the relevant safety regulations
you know the item was purchased new on or after 1 March 1993 (in which case it is deemed to have met the safety requirements without the need for a label) or
the furniture was manufactured before 1950, even if re-upholstered since then (in which case it is exempt from the safety regulations).

Electrical Safety

All electrical goods sold at auction must comply with the Low Voltage Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1989, which specify the requirements for electrical equipment for domestic use (that is toasters, kettles and the like, but not office equipment such as fax machines and computers).

The safety regulations apply to new or second hand goods. You should make sure that all mechanical or electrical appliances that you seize are in working order and that your auctioneer is able to have any electrical equipment checked by a qualified electrical engineer before sale.
Televisions, DVDs, Hi-fis, VCRs and so on

If the equipment has a remote control you must ensure you list it separately on the inventory, otherwise you have not seized it and cannot subsequently remove it. Always list the manufacturer’s name, model, colour and serial number.

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

There have been no installments paid since the bailiff's visit as I have had no funds and been awaiting receipt of wages on the 27th of this month. Now these have been received, I will be taking your advice and making a payment over the counter for £100.00 at our local payment office.

Do you mean no instalments made since the Levy was made last year or from 19/01/12?

We were under the impression that the payment agreement made last year between ourselves and Jacob's, which incidently was signed on the same day as the Walking Possession, included the amount in question, so as far as we were concerned, installments WERE being made. It was not until a letter dated 12/12/2011 was received from Jacob's that an issue became apparent. Turns out that the agreement made was for a couple of other outstanding amounts that had been merged into one by Jacob's, but did NOT include the £540.50 amount in question.

Since the receipt of the letter, we had been in full communications with Jacob's head office, where it was discovered that Jacob's had actually no reference of a repayment agreement with us, on the reference number the new debt was on. Jacob's also informed us to contact the Council and get the Charge Year information held on record.

We were still awaiting evidence of the alleged amount owed from the council when the bailiff served the 24 hour removal notice on the 19/01/2012. From that moment, I have not been in a financial position to make any payment upon the debt until I received my wages.

[ploddertom]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

If that is the case then in my view the Bailiff had abandoned his levy whether or not you signed a Walking Possession Agreement.

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Second complaint letter sent by email today and will be in land post on Monday. A payment has been made direct to Council with proof of payment kept.

Should I contact LGO advice team at this stage or await for a response from the Council on the second letter?

Just want to take this opportunity to thank all for the advice and help with this matter. It is appreciated more than I can ever relay through a website.....

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Hi all,

A HUGE thanks goes out to all those who gave some input on this thread and special thanks to Happy Contrails for their input.

As of the 1st February, 2012 the account was closed, and removed, from Jacob's database and returned to Council administration. All future payments and communications will be to the Council direct.

Once again, thank you all for the support and advice. We can breathe a little easier as a family and concentrate on getting our finances back on track without the threat of baliff action hanging over us.

[Swingletree]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

Should I contact LGO advice team at this stage or await for a response from the Council on the second letter?

Just want to take this opportunity to thank all for the advice and help with this matter. It is appreciated more than I can ever relay through a website.....

The LGO WILL NOT get involved until you have exhausted ALL of the Council Complaint procedure.

It's the LGO way of reducing the work that they have to do.

Make sure that you have followed all the 'lines of inquiry' with the council before involving the LGO, my experience is that they do not like Council being blame worthy for anything they do even when it bears on illegal lines. Just search for Maladministration + LGO

Good luck

[titch2k6]

Re: Urgent advice required, please!

The LGO WILL NOT get involved until you have exhausted ALL of the Council Complaint procedure.

It's the LGO way of reducing the work that they have to do.

Make sure that you have followed all the 'lines of inquiry' with the council before involving the LGO, my experience is that they do not like Council being blame worthy for anything they do even when it bears on illegal lines. Just search for Maladministration + LGO

Good luck

Thanks for the advice, but as mentioned in post previously, this issue has now been favourably resolved.