Going round the houses!

[Catchalot]

Re: Going round the houses!

Thank you Amethyst - I will be emailing customer service at the Land Registry on Monday.

Do I beat the vendor's solicitor over the head with the following and leave the vendor to pick up the bill?

Where a land charge has been registered in the correct name, this serves as actual notice of its existence (S.198(1) Law of Property Act 1925) however, where a purchaser has entered a contract to buy the land and a search of the register later reveals a land charge of which he was unaware the purchaser is not obliged to complete the contract (s.24(1) Law of Property Act 1969). (Thanks e-lawresources.co.uk)

[Amethyst]

Re: Going round the houses!

You can, of course if the vendor didn't disclose the charge, it isn't in the auction legal pack, and it has shown up in searches you have no obligation to complete.

Did you try a google on the address?

[des8]

Re: Going round the houses!

customer service at the Land Registry on Monday.

Do I beat the vendor's solicitor over the head with the following and leave the vendor to pick up the bill?

Where a land charge has been registered in the correct name, this serves as actual notice of its existence (S.198(1) Law of Property Act 1925) however, where a purchaser has entered a contract to buy the land and a search of the register later reveals a land charge of which he was unaware the purchaser is not obliged to complete the contract (s.24(1) Law of Property Act 1969). (Thanks e-lawresources.co.uk)

Do bear in mind that the note from lawresources refers to REGISTERED land charges and a search of the REGISTER.
This charge appears not to have been registered.

I believe (note the certainty !) that where a Land Charge is not registered it is rendered void against a subsequent purchaser of the land.

[Catchalot]

Re: Going round the houses!

Chargee: Secretaty of State for Social Services. (Alexander Fleming House, Elephant and Castle, London)
Date: January 1984.
Class: C Sub-Class (i)

It's November now!

Still "Going round the houses"!! Emailed and spoken to Land Registry and the charge is in existence and not cancelled. (Charge IS registered) No more details were available.

Have even found the original solicitors practice that drew up the Land Charge but, of course, they have no record of it.

I (or our solicitors) obviously need to find out how much the charge was for and to whom it would be payable.
How can I get more information on it?

What would a Land Charge raised by the Secretary of State for Social Services be about?

Someone must know somwhere! Help!

[des8]

Re: Going round the houses!

The land charge could have been raised for something like care home costs.

Your options seem to be
-disregard it and continue to complete
-effect an indemnity insurance to cover yourself
-pull out of the deal.

As the vendor should have ensured the property was free of charges any costs should be met by him, as should any losses.

Consult (appoint) a properly qualified and bonded solicitor (as CC's advice earlier) before proceeding.
Again extra costs caused by vendor's failure to be met by vendor

[Catchalot]

Re: Going round the houses!

Thank you Des8.

Here we go again!

Urgent phone call from my solicitor yesterday evening saying the vendors want to complete next week with a retention of £10,000 of the price by me. (£1,000 borrowed over thirty years at 8% compound interest comes out at slightly over £10,000 so I think the final figure could be even higher)

I also feel that the vendors would just take the money and run considering the loss of £10k as nothing compared to the legal fees required to set up indemnity insurance and the repayment and cancellation of the Land Charge.

Until such time as I have sight of a Certificate of Cancellation of the Land Charge no money is going to change hands!!

I too, think it is time to appoint an experienced and properly qualified solicitor. They have been at it for over three months. I have only just found out that my solicitor and the vendor's work in the same firm albeit in different parts of the country!

[des8]

Re: Going round the houses!

I think I too would take your stance.
The vendors are at fault, and they should ensure it does not leave you at risk, and your extra costs are met (including any losses caused by not completing the sale on time!)

[Crazy council]

Re: Going round the houses!

be carfull here [MENTION=70966]Catchalot[/MENTION]

for your own interest, it may be worth doing a land reg search to find ot how long the current vendors have had the building, and who owned it when the charge was imposed
if the current vendors wasent the owners at the time, and they have gained ownership through a will or other means ( not a sale ), be carfull.

Back in the 80s, goverment depts was not always god at completing transactions whne it come to property. about 5 years ago, we looked around our area at the abandoned property's ( no known owner ). and notices that a few, were owned by government depts, but they did not know,

If you had got this property in a will. i would say SSSSSHHHHHHHH , dont rock any boats, but, i would not buy it without iether

1. Full guarantee from the vendor that they will pay the charge, after the exchange when its found
2. Understanding who the owners were at the time the charge was gained.

I would proceed if i could get a guarantee of number one, otherwise i would walk away.

[Catchalot]

Re: Going round the houses!

Thank you CC. I have been digging up quite a bit of informaton about the property and the vendors.

The vendors had an application to develop the site turned down by the Council in 2014. Quite a volume of correspondence to and fro with planners and architects on the Council website.

The sale is part of probate following the death of the owner. There are several beneficiaries,siblings and offspring.

A week after the auction the vendors were offered £30k more than my closing bid by a developer.

Hmmmm!!

Could the vendor's solicitor be marking time, hoping I'll give up, drop the sale and go away? I wonder!

Surely it does not take four months to sort the Land Charge out and have it cancelled. The vendors solicitor claims it will take between £7k - £10k to have it removed through the Court. Not my problem! How on earth can I get him to move forward.

I am not giving up yet!!

[des8]

Re: Going round the houses!

So the vendor is the executor of a deceased's estate, and had a planning application refused.

The executor is responsible for dealing with the estate in a proper manner.
He might be held personally liable for losses caused to the estate by his mistakes.

If that is the case it could perhaps, at least partially, be the reason for the attempt to push for completion, if he made the error in selling without full title.

[Crazy council]

Re: Going round the houses!

hi [MENTION=70966]Catchalot[/MENTION] again, tread carfully,

I would not believe the vendors, and why not call there bluff, if they say they have been offered 30k more, agree, say they can have it back for 15k premuim plus costs... i think you will get a load of ummm,, errrr, wellllll,, or, just maybe, you will get 15k in your pocket ( it does happen )

They seem to understand a lot more about the charge then there telling you, and look through the reasons why there planning was refused, maybe theres a problem that you have not noticed, examples of odd problems that planning apps can expose

1. water table / drainage irregularitys
2. insufficient footing
3. area plan / conservation area problems
4. contamination of the land or water
5. and of course charges,

if you post up the details of the auction paperwork, remove all your details and all property details, just leave auction conditions and T&cs, i will perhaps be able to give you a bit better advise.

[wales01man]

Re: Going round the houses!

Smelling a rat here as CC says call their bluff you are in the driving seat at the moment

[Catchalot]

Re: Going round the houses!

Still going round the houses!! Have been doing quite a bit of digging and have just about got to the bottom of this five month saga.

Interesting facts: The vendor has, so far, had six different solicitors dealing with this. All from the same firm who I feel should be 'named and shamed'.
It was only at the beginning of November that one of the vendor's solicitors contacted the local Land Charge Team !!
The developer withdrew his offer about the same time after I spoke to him. It turns out that we had worked together in the past on several sites but in different trades.
The Land Charge has been tracked down and a probable figure is known. If it carries interest charges or compound interest over thirty years it comes to a considerable sum.
The estate agent who held the auction has also been on to the vendor's solicitor obviously fed up with waiting for any commision! He's embarassed by the lack of progress.
I still feel that the vendors are waiting for me to go away and give up allowing them to put the property back on the market.

I have had good advice and support from the Land Registry and the local Land Charge Team but,of course, they cannot act for me to resolve the situation.

I'll just have to 'sit it out'.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Going round the houses!

Class C - sub class i is a puisne mortgage

(i)a puisne mortgage is a legal mortgage which is not protected by a deposit of documents relating to the legal estate affected;


( doesn't mean much to me tbh)

It means that a puisne is a legal mortgage/ charge and is binding and affective to the entire property. The first lender holds the deeds (title to property) but a second or third cannot therefore so they are puisne mortgages/ charges. Equitable charges are not binding as they only affect part of the land pro rata the charge's value, so can be set aside. It seems the registrar has made an error as puisne mortgages are more likely to be held by banks using the charge as security for the loan (mortgage). The rule is once a charge is registered then it is binding. The property comes under the old rules which are pre 2002 Land registration Act (enforceable 2003), as prior to this registration was voluntary and came under the Land Registration Act 1925. Should your solicitor have been aware of the land charge before you parted with your cash is the question. My view is yes - I do not know how a legal mortgage can be removed without paying the value of the legal charge.

[Catchalot]

Re: Going round the houses!

Surely, it does not take six months to cancel and remove a Land Charge? Even allowing for a totally incompetent solicitor/conveyancer.

The property is showing signs of considerable water ingress, lack of care and basic maintenance by the vendors.

I think it is time to play 'hardball'. My patience is exhausted. I have a pretty good case against the vendors, the executor and probably their solicitor on the grounds of misrepresentation. Trouble is, I'll probably have to employ another solicitor!!

Any suggestions?