Things turning nasty with family over property

[Gilganjn]

Here's the situation just to explain things. My sister, husband and kids have been renting the property for past 10 years and they've been paying about half price rent for all this time. All the money goes to my dad who moved to another country 6 years ago. I never received an income from the property.

My mum bought the house 15 years ago and unfortunately passed away soon afterwards. After she died we changed the names on the deeds so that the 3 of us (dad, me, sister) we were all legal co-owners of the property for tax purposes, on advice of a solicitor. Since then we initially rented it out to random people but my sister and family have been living there for the past 10 years (and saving a substantial amount of money for the space & location).

Unfortunately for me I was hit with some hard times both physically and financially and had to move in there at the beginning of the year. I haven't benefited from the property financially before but right now I'm unable to afford to pay rent.

Now we’ve started arguing about things. My sister accuses me of “scrounging off my mum” because I’m not paying rent at the moment, even though she's been saving in the region of £750 per month off the cost that a normal family would pay there. However they have paid for the general maintenance of the property over the years themselves and they are sketchy and defensive when I try to discuss things. She says “it’s got nothing to do with you, it’s between me and my mum”. She has basically convinced herself that I have no say at all in the property. I thought she would have been grateful for me not interfering or even bringing up the subject of the property while they stayed there but for so long but it's like she now thinks I had no choice from the start and that I have no say in it.

I don’t know where I’m going with this, just needed to get some stuff in writing and throw it out there.

[Crazy council]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Double post

[Crazy council]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

If your sister still lives there. Shecwould be classed as the tenant. And most of what she says is correct. Your just a part owner... how much rent she paid is regardless.... because she and your dad are part owners as well.. was there any conditions in the paperwork around you doing the share... was the property split in a will. Or agreed by you three after...

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Yes my sister still lives there and she and her family are tenants there, however in terms of rental cost over the years she's saved approx £60000 compared to what a "normal" family would pay. She has had the benefit of using the property any way she pleased all these years. I'm not entirely sure about the conditions of the share, when I try to discuss things it's awkward. It was done in fact when we were all children but I know all of our names are on the actual deeds of the house.

[des8]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Sorry to hear about your family problems.
You say you, your sister and your father were all named on the deeds as legal co owners.
As children (minors) however cannot legally own land in the UK it must have been in trust for you.
Has the trust been wound up or come to an end?
If it is still in existence reference to the terms of the trust may sort out your problems.
If it has ended, was it before or after your sister rented the property.
If ended after your sisters occupation began, were the terms of the trust followed when it was rented at below market rates to your sister?
Most trusts would be for the equal benefit of each co beneficiary, and it sounds as if your sister had the best of the bargain.
Whilst this isn't necessarily a problem when everything is amicable, the inequality can cause relationships to deteriorate quite rapidly.

[Crazy council]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

however in terms of rental cost over the years she's saved approx £60000 compared to what a "normal" family would pay

How are you getting them figures, Take the average rent ( from a reliable source ). Divide it by three, ( depending on your father's opinion ). Then out of that, you have to deduct general maintenance ( will probably eat the rest up ).

So, what can you do if you really feel the need to do anything, Firstly, get any trustee deads, details of executor and administrators ( if there was any ), get the land registry details ect ect. Any and all paperwork that details the split.

Then negotiate with the other 2..

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

How are you getting them figures, Take the average rent ( from a reliable source ). Divide it by three, ( depending on your father's opinion ). Then out of that, you have to deduct general maintenance ( will probably eat the rest up ).

So, what can you do if you really feel the need to do anything, Firstly, get any trustee deads, details of executor and administrators ( if there was any ), get the land registry details ect ect. Any and all paperwork that details the split.

Then negotiate with the other 2..

The average rental cost is £1500 per month for the house. Whereas they pay my dad £750 per month. I really don't think general maintenance would cost that additional £750 per month? I mean the house isn't falling apart - it needs a little painting and plastering from time to time, but that's just the average amount for a normal house. Perhaps once a year or so, and her husband does that himself, they don't pay for an external company. Also gardening from time to time, but they have full use of the garden and even have a vegetable patch which they enjoy. It is quite a priviledged position to be in all in all.

It just doesn't sit well with me that my sister is saying it's "got nothing to do with me". I feel I did her a big favour by not interfering with her life in the property for years and now she doesn't wish to even acknowledge that at all, and has convinced herself that I never had a say in things. It's like she literally thinks she owns the place herself sometimes.

[leclerc]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Ok. I am going to be blunt so please do not take it to heart.

Here's the situation just to explain things. My sister, husband and kids have been renting the property for past 10 years and they've been paying about half price rent for all this time. All the money goes to my dad who moved to another country 6 years ago. I never received an income from the property.

My mum bought the house 15 years ago and unfortunately passed away soon afterwards. After she died we changed the names on the deeds so that the 3 of us (dad, me, sister) we were all legal co-owners of the property for tax purposes, on advice of a solicitor. Since then we initially rented it out to random people but my sister and family have been living there for the past 10 years (and saving a substantial amount of money for the space & location).

Unfortunately for me I was hit with some hard times both physically and financially and had to move in there at the beginning of the year. I haven't benefited from the property financially before but right now I'm unable to afford to pay rent.

Now we’ve started arguing about things. My sister accuses me of “scrounging off my mum” because I’m not paying rent at the moment,
(you cannot scrounge of someone who is dead so what she is saying is nonsense. Furthermore as a legal co owner with her, you can live in the house whilst you get back on your feet).
even though she's been saving in the region of £750 per month off the cost that a normal family would pay there. However they have paid for the general maintenance of the property over the years themselves and they are sketchy and defensive when I try to discuss things. She says “it’s got nothing to do with you, it’s between me and my mum”. She has basically convinced herself that I have no say at all in the property. I thought she would have been grateful for me not interfering or even bringing up the subject of the property while they stayed there but for so long but it's like she now thinks I had no choice from the start and that I have no say in it.

I don’t know where I’m going with this, just needed to get some stuff in writing and throw it out there.

Something is confusing the heck out of me. You have said your mother passed away when the house was bought so why is the "scounging of my mum" and "it's between me and my mum" coming up if your dad is the one that is another co owner? Furthermore, how come he is, according to yourself, the beneficiary of £750.00 a month and yet as a co owner you get nothing?
It is slightly strange unless as others have said, in regards to the trust issue, that he is the trustee.

Somethings are a little odd in what I have read so far.....can you clarify a few points....

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Ok. I am going to be blunt so please do not take it to heart.




Something is confusing the heck out of me. You have said your mother passed away when the house was bought so why is the "scounging of my mum" and "it's between me and my mum" coming up if your dad is the one that is another co owner? Furthermore, how come he is, according to yourself, the beneficiary of £750.00 a month and yet as a co owner you get nothing?
It is slightly strange unless as others have said, in regards to the trust issue, that he is the trustee.

Somethings are a little odd in what I have read so far.....can you clarify a few points....

Sorry that was a typo - she said "scrounging off your dad" and it's "between me and my dad" (not my mum). I guess in the back of my mind I'd always hoped I did right by mum to let my sister live there uninterrupted - especially after she had a kids, it's a great place for a child to grow up. And so I just let everything continue without interfering but I was always conscious of being a co-owner of the property, though I never mentioned it for many years. I'm not sure about the trustee issue, I really haven't had active involvement in the property for a long time or seen any associated paperwork for years. Only the original deeds I've seen twice in my life and they have all our names on them.

My father got remarried a number of years ago, moved abroad with his wife. His only form of income has been the rent from the property because he hasn't been able to work for years due to illness. So although it would be nice to gain an income from the property myself, and technically I am just by living there at the moment without paying rent, I've never had an issue with my father receiving all the rent, it's fair enough to me.

[leclerc]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Sorry that was a typo - she said "scrounging off your dad" and it's "between me and my dad" (not my mum). I guess in the back of my mind I'd always hoped I did right by mum to let my sister live there uninterrupted - especially after she had a kids, it's a great place for a child to grow up. And so I just let everything continue without interfering but I was always conscious of being a co-owner of the property, though I never mentioned it for many years. I'm not sure about the trustee issue, I really haven't had active involvement in the property for a long time or seen any associated paperwork for years. Only the original deeds I've seen twice in my life and they have all our names on them.

My father got remarried a number of years ago, moved abroad with his wife. His only form of income has been the rent from the property because he hasn't been able to work for years due to illness. So although it would be nice to gain an income from the property myself, and technically I am just by living there at the moment without paying rent, I've never had an issue with my father receiving all the rent, it's fair enough to me.

Is there an underlying issue that we are not aware of? Why are the arguments flaring up?
is the house big enough for you to live there and to be able to feed yourself without your sister's help?
has she asked for money towards gas/electricity/council tax?

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Sorry to hear about your family problems.
You say you, your sister and your father were all named on the deeds as legal co owners.
As children (minors) however cannot legally own land in the UK it must have been in trust for you.
Has the trust been wound up or come to an end?
If it is still in existence reference to the terms of the trust may sort out your problems.
If it has ended, was it before or after your sister rented the property.
If ended after your sisters occupation began, were the terms of the trust followed when it was rented at below market rates to your sister?
Most trusts would be for the equal benefit of each co beneficiary, and it sounds as if your sister had the best of the bargain.
Whilst this isn't necessarily a problem when everything is amicable, the inequality can cause relationships to deteriorate quite rapidly.

I'm not sure about the trust issue at all, as far as I remember we were all put onto the deeds of the property when we were children. I really haven't had an active involvement in these things from the start, and always felt a bit awkward and sidelined even trying to discuss the issue, especially with my sister.

Is there a way to obtain information about the trust without going through family? How could I find out? It's just that since the issue has come up about the house, possibly 3 times since I've been living there, my sister has gotten angry and argumentative. She can have quite a mean streak too and has called me all sorts of things. I can hold my own in an argument but she will usually just say what she wants to say and then close off all communication - she will hardly listen to anything I say, and in fact she has said my opinion doesn't matter to her. During our last argument she also stamped her foot and said "it's MY house".

And I don't really want to argue, that isn't my intention. I'd just really just like to get out of the situation as soon as possible.

[enquirer]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

During our last argument she also stamped her foot and said "it's MY house".

I suspect that you are going to have to force a sale.

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Is there an underlying issue that we are not aware of? Why are the arguments flaring up?
is the house big enough for you to live there and to be able to feed yourself without your sister's help?
has she asked for money towards gas/electricity/council tax?

She has asked several times about gas/electric/council which I'm unable to contribute towards although I pay for all food myself and also babysit from time to time. I pick up her child from school once a week and look after her for a few hours so I thought that would reduce their cost on the child-minder somewhat and hopefully go towards the bills. But I mentioned that once and she just sneered and laughed, and basically gave off the impression that it doesn't help at all in that way.

The house is quite a small house in terms of space but I have my own room which is the smallest room in the house.

The arguments flare up for a number of reasons, partly the bills issue, partly the fact that I've been there much longer than I'd expected - I thought I'd only stay for 2 months and then be on my way but it's been 7 months now and unfortunately I have a chronic pain condition which I haven't told anyone in the family about but it's the primary reason I am in the situation I'm in now.

[des8]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

In your first post you stated that you were all named on the deeds as co owners. I'm assuming that meant you were all registered with land registry.
Your first port of call could be the Land Registry, to find out exactly the current position regarding registered owners.
You can find out who (at cost £3) online at http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/publi...erty-ownership.
With that info you'll be in a better position to decide the way forward.

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

In your first post you stated that you were all named on the deeds as co owners. I'm assuming that meant you were all registered with land registry.
Your first port of call could be the Land Registry, to find out exactly the current position regarding registered owners.
You can find out who (at cost £3) online at http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/publi...erty-ownership.
With that info you'll be in a better position to decide the way forward.

Thanks for the info, I'm going to look into this. I'd prefer if my sister and I could just talk about things without the need for me to investigate things. But I think she has forced me into a position now where I need to find out where I stand. If she'd just accepted that I am a co-owner of the property, that I've done her favour by letting her stay for so long paying half price rent while I've paid full price in bedsits that I've rented. I think she has really convinced herself that I'm totally irrelevant when it comes to the property - in fact I do feel that way all the time now because of her behavior. I guess I really need to find out.