Things turning nasty with family over property

[wales01man]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

To be Blunt You need to get Legal Advice a Good Solicitor will be able to check all the details and clarify the Position for all of you,
Trouble is this will cost Money.

[Crazy council]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

that I've done her favour by letting her stay for so long paying half price rent while I've paid full price in bedsits that I've rented.

How did you get that. you say 1500 rent. Take off her share of 500, leaves £ 1000. She is paying your dad £ 750... leaving £ 250 short of the quoted figure. Then you have take of there general maintenance, that would probably cover the other 250. and thats is if you have the rent figure correct.

Further.... dividing a property into shares, is usualy done to AVOID capital gains tax or death duties... Also, if you dad is outside the EU, ( if this is still correct ) , 20% of the rent paid should have been to the tax man... Digging around may not be the wise way forward on this.

1. What does you dad say ?
2. Do you want to evict your own family to force converting your share into cash..... is that acceptable to you,

sorry for being so very very blunt here. but am guessing, you dad got passed the property becuase he was next of kin, he decided to split it down for tax or other reasons... ( possibly even in his will ). an agreement has been done between you dad and sister, to allow her and her family use of the family home. She is paying this, and has been for over 10 years.

For some reason, life has took a turn for you and you now find yourself looking to secure assit, understandable..

But, you sisiter is allowing you to live there ( she is the tenant, you can not just move in without her permission, you can not assume right to live there ). Without paying towards the rent and or bills, and you still bringing up that you think you are owed.

You need to get the details from your dad to start with, before you cause trouble that you can not back away from...

Sorry for the bluntness, but it is monday morning, and am not a monday person:tinysmile_aha_t:

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

To be Blunt You need to get Legal Advice a Good Solicitor will be able to check all the details and clarify the Position for all of you,
Trouble is this will cost Money.

It is beginning to seem as if I do need to do that, but it's true I have no funds for that. I'd rather not go down that road right now anyway. I think I'd just be content knowing that as a co-owner I do have rights, and that for all these years I have been supportive and helpful to my sister and her family by not interfering with them in the property, and that I am actually in the right there. I don't want to rock the boat as such, I did what I did because my sister had a kids and I thought it's better for her family to live in a nice location, rather than a single person such as myself. It's a good area for a child to grow up in. That viewpoint hasn't really changed.

But it would be nice to know my status, just so that I know that I'm correct in the situation. My sister has a way of manipulating things to her advantage but I'm just shell-shocked that she says now that property has nothing to do with me. It's like she's absolved herself from any feeling of being indebted or grateful towards me, and as if she is the only one entitled to anything. She was the first child and was somewhat spoiled. She used to throw tantrums and get her way all the time. I think that's continued in her adult life and it's being reflected in this situation.

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

How did you get that. you say 1500 rent. Take off her share of 500, leaves £ 1000. She is paying your dad £ 750... leaving £ 250 short of the quoted figure. Then you have take of there general maintenance, that would probably cover the other 250. and thats is if you have the rent figure correct.

Further.... dividing a property into shares, is usualy done to AVOID capital gains tax or death duties... Also, if you dad is outside the EU, ( if this is still correct ) , 20% of the rent paid should have been to the tax man... Digging around may not be the wise way forward on this.

1. What does you dad say ?
2. Do you want to evict your own family to force converting your share into cash..... is that acceptable to you,

sorry for being so very very blunt here. but am guessing, you dad got passed the property becuase he was next of kin, he decided to split it down for tax or other reasons... ( possibly even in his will ). an agreement has been done between you dad and sister, to allow her and her family use of the family home. She is paying this, and has been for over 10 years.

For some reason, life has took a turn for you and you now find yourself looking to secure assit, understandable..

But, you sisiter is allowing you to live there ( she is the tenant, you can not just move in without her permission, you can not assume right to live there ). Without paying towards the rent and or bills, and you still bringing up that you think you are owed.

You need to get the details from your dad to start with, before you cause trouble that you can not back away from...

Sorry for the bluntness, but it is monday morning, and am not a monday person:tinysmile_aha_t:

That's ok, I can handle it. Appreciate your honesty. The 500 that you say my sister is entitled to, I know what you mean in some respects but then would you agree that I'd be entitled to income from the property too and have been for years?

What was supposed to happen is that the entire rent went to my dad, and none of us other than my dad would get the income from the property. What has happened, technically, using I suppose your legal framework is that my sister and dad have gained income from the property but I haven't? Is that how you see things? Or are you saying that only my sister and dad would be entitled to gain from the property but I'm not?

[wales01man]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

If you cannot reach an agreement with them for you to get some income the only way forward is to go Legal if you have no money to do this and she wont agrre anything in a word you are Stuffed.

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Further.... dividing a property into shares, is usualy done to AVOID capital gains tax or death duties... Also, if you dad is outside the EU, ( if this is still correct ) , 20% of the rent paid should have been to the tax man... Digging around may not be the wise way forward on this.

1. What does you dad say ?
2. Do you want to evict your own family to force converting your share into cash..... is that acceptable to you,

sorry for being so very very blunt here. but am guessing, you dad got passed the property becuase he was next of kin, he decided to split it down for tax or other reasons... ( possibly even in his will ). an agreement has been done between you dad and sister, to allow her and her family use of the family home. She is paying this, and has been for over 10 years.

For some reason, life has took a turn for you and you now find yourself looking to secure assit, understandable..

But, you sisiter is allowing you to live there ( she is the tenant, you can not just move in without her permission, you can not assume right to live there ). Without paying towards the rent and or bills, and you still bringing up that you think you are owed.

You need to get the details from your dad to start with, before you cause trouble that you can not back away from...

Sorry for the bluntness, but it is monday morning, and am not a monday person:tinysmile_aha_t:

To answer the questions:

1) I haven't really discussed it with dad. It's something I'll have to do, but it's sort of awkward because I've just let things go on as they are for a long time.
2) I don't want to evict the family at all.

My sister is the tenant, but there is actually no official tenancy agreement. I suppose I do feel I'm owed at least a thank you for not interfering for many years - I just feel shell-shocked that my sister has gone in the opposite direction and is saying it's got nothing to do with me when I'm a co-owner.

[Amethyst]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Equal ownership between the three of you?

The way it currently is set up is based on a £1500 rental, of which that your dad is getting £750 rental income each month, and your sister is paying £750 a month, and having benefit of the £750 discount (her ownership) and you are getting nothing. It would work if it were only your sister and your dad who owned the property but it is split 3 ways equally? In which case her rent should increase by a third, and your dads income should reduce a third - so she should pay £1000, your dad should get £500 and you should get £500 and she has the benefit of that £500 reduction.

So reduce that down to a family rate rent - say £1000.
That's £333 each - so she pays £767 (to pay rent of £1000 as she uses her third benefit) - which goes half to you and half to your dad - so your dad gets £333 and you pay her say £250 a month for lodging - So basically she should pay £333 to your dad and £83 to you and you're all then in equal benefit of ownership of the house and rental income of £1000 between you.

Then account for any amount reasonable for maintenance/repairs of the property (which is for all your benefits)

I think that's what CrazyCouncil is trying to say (bear in mind my maths is terrible so if someone can work it out better feel absolutely free).

In reality I'm not sure it would work as it basically halves your Dad's income and it has been a long running ( 10 years? ) agreement between the three of you (them explicitly and you by implication of not having protested previously )

[Crazy council]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

My sister is the tenant, but there is actually no official tenancy agreement.

makes no difference. as the tenacy commenced after 1997, she has all the protections of an assured shorthold tenancy.

I just feel shell-shocked that my sister has gone in the opposite direction and is saying it's got nothing to do with me when I'm a co-owner.

Its been her family home for the last 10 years, she has children. i bet she is worried sick.

To deal with this, you should start by speaking to your dad, because digging around may casue trouble, both for your family and for tax reasons..... and if any of your investigations trigger the tax man to stick his nose in, and he finds something irregular.... then you all stranded up poop hill.... and the tax man is very cleaver.

Lastly.

Do you have any liabilities debts... or any previous ones that might chase you... Do you understand what could happen if you do officialy secure your 3rd of the property.....

I know it may seem am being a bit direct, but i dont think your considering the possible consequences for all others involved.

[Amethyst]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

And no idea how I doubled £333 to get £767 ! so you'll have to work it out but hopefully you get the idea of what I was trying to say.

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

makes no difference. as the tenacy commenced after 1997, she has all the protections of an assured shorthold tenancy.

Its been her family home for the last 10 years, she has children. i bet she is worried sick.

She may be worried, but I've had a lot of worry to deal with over the years too, paying full price rent. I thought I was doing her family a favour for years because it was really either me or her who could have "benefited" from the use of the house. So I feel I've helped her family for years already. What gets me the most is her belief that I have no say and it's nothing to do with me. It's as if she's convinced herself of that because I stayed away for so long. I thought she would have been grateful for that but instead it feels like she's using my non-interference against me. I mean part of the reason I did that was so that she and husband could be in a position to save money and put a deposit down on their own place but instead she seems to have been living a sort of carefree life at the property.

To deal with this, you should start by speaking to your dad, because digging around may casue trouble, both for your family and for tax reasons..... and if any of your investigations trigger the tax man to stick his nose in, and he finds something irregular.... then you all stranded up poop hill.... and the tax man is very cleaver.

I'll start there, thanks for the advice.

Lastly.

Do you have any liabilities debts... or any previous ones that might chase you... Do you understand what could happen if you do officialy secure your 3rd of the property.....

I know it may seem am being a bit direct, but i dont think your considering the possible consequences for all others involved.

A bill turned up the other day for £66 for a phone contract apparently from decades ago. I'm not sure if they've made a mistake because I've been using pay as you go phones for as far back as I can remember, at least 15 years.

[Gilganjn]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Equal ownership between the three of you?

The way it currently is set up is based on a £1500 rental, of which that your dad is getting £750 rental income each month, and your sister is paying £750 a month, and having benefit of the £750 discount (her ownership) and you are getting nothing. It would work if it were only your sister and your dad who owned the property but it is split 3 ways equally? In which case her rent should increase by a third, and your dads income should reduce a third - so she should pay £1000, your dad should get £500 and you should get £500 and she has the benefit of that £500 reduction.

So reduce that down to a family rate rent - say £1000.
That's £333 each - so she pays £767 (to pay rent of £1000 as she uses her third benefit) - which goes half to you and half to your dad - so your dad gets £333 and you pay her say £250 a month for lodging - So basically she should pay £333 to your dad and £83 to you and you're all then in equal benefit of ownership of the house and rental income of £1000 between you.

Then account for any amount reasonable for maintenance/repairs of the property (which is for all your benefits)

I think that's what CrazyCouncil is trying to say (bear in mind my maths is terrible so if someone can work it out better feel absolutely free).

In reality I'm not sure it would work as it basically halves your Dad's income and it has been a long running ( 10 years? ) agreement between the three of you (them explicitly and you by implication of not having protested previously )

Thanks for the information and financial breakdown of things here. It's interesting to know.

As you say the problem is it would halve my dad's income from the property and I prefer he just gets it all really. I don't really want an income from the property to be honest. I was just sort of wondering where I stand legally in the situation and it's interesting reading your breakdown here.

For me, the ideal situation would have been that my sister and husband had saved enough money to buy their own place (because they have talked about wanting a place which is their's outright before). Then we'd get 3 tenants in the property and my dad would get the full 1500. And I'd be renting somewhere else. Unfortunately things haven't worked out that way, at least for the time being.

[MissFM]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

My tuppenny worth (since everyone's apologising for being blunt I will too):

I think you've fallen foul of the old adage, particularly applicable when doing business with family and friends, that "No good deed goes unpunished".

It's always a mistake not to put things on a clear business footing and the results here are typical - everyone feels resentful.

Based on a market rent of £1,500 the sums in the first part of Ame's post make sense.

Equal ownership between the three of you?

The way it currently is set up is based on a £1500 rental, of which that your dad is getting £750 rental income each month, and your sister is paying £750 a month, and having benefit of the £750 discount (her ownership) and you are getting nothing. It would work if it were only your sister and your dad who owned the property but it is split 3 ways equally? In which case her rent should increase by a third, and your dads income should reduce a third - so she should pay £1000, your dad should get £500 and you should get £500 and she has the benefit of that £500 reduction.

ie your sister would have paid a rent of £1,000 split equally between you and your father if ownership of the property is equal.

Normally a tenant would also have a duty to maintain up to a point and improvements would be paid out (&/or offset against dilapidations) at the end of the tenancy. Again, this is complicated by the fact that she would be liable for 1/3 of all the Landlord's maintenance obligations:rolleyes2:. One way of avoiding all this would be if she had a normal tenancy, paid her rent into a Trustee a/c and received back her share of the net income pro rata.

It's never a good idea to try to circumvent the taxman by non-legal means, even below the radar.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to draw up a chart showing all this and also to have a look at the land Registry to see who is actually on the deeds.

The obvious way to a peaceful solution is to draw a firm line over the past and put things on a more businesslike basis for the future - making sure in the process that both your sister and your father are well aware of the generosity of your actions.

[MissFM]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Sorry Gilganjn, didn't see your last two posts when I posted the above.

Could your sister and family buy you and your father out, as another option?

[wales01man]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Well put but its looking like the sister is not willing to change things as they stand which leaves only the Legal option.
Have to ask the OP if they have checked the Land registry site to find out the Legal Owners that's a start.
If we put ourselves in the shoes of the sister who is getting a big discount in rent that's probably protected why should she agree to anything??????

[Crazy council]

Re: Things turning nasty with family over property

Hi ( monday mornings over, its safe now :tinysmile_aha_t: )

You really need to speak to your dad before you go digging about, there is quite a lot your not taking into account financially, and maybe consider your sisters being quite decednt to you, letting you live there rent free, and without paying bills.. in the long term, familys are much more valuble than money... Were would you be now without your lovely sisters consideration.... :hug: