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veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

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  • veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

    Thank you for your letter dated 10th December. Unfortunately it appears that you believe we had a Co2 spike or 'Carbon Dioxide' spike?
    It was actually a 'Carbon Monoxide' Spill that we suffered, twice since we moved into the property in July 2009 and not 'Carbon Dioxide' or a spike.....

    I am also confused by your comment of, "I have at no time said I am not dealing with this situation."
    Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't you say on the telephone, "I'm not dealing with this, the Landlord is dealing with the HSE directly"....?

    As you are fully aware we have 3 very small fan heaters, supplied to us by the Landlords gas engineer from Heatek. Unfortunately these are in No way enough to heat this property. At most we can partially heat 2 rooms using these. After the 5-6 inches of snow that have fallen overnight along with the outside temperature dropping to freezing, it is all the more apparent that these heaters are just not enough. We are also having to run them for 15 hrs during the day just to keep a few rooms inhabitable. We have been lucky enough to have concerned family and neighbours who have loaned us a couple of convection heaters to help keep our 18 month old son, my fiancee, myself and a 'looked after child' warm.

    I have today spoken to the HSE, who have informed me that the Landlord has already been advised what is required to rectify the heating problem. They could not understand why it has taken so long for the Landlord or yourselves to contact us, or to rectify this situation. I noted that you said on your letter that, 'As soon as they can tell us what needs doing we will sort it out.'

    After 4 weeks of waiting for Central Heating and Hot water so far, in a very cold November and December. We were just wondering when we should expect to see a safe and working gas central heating system again?

    Until the central heating is restored to a safe and functioning state, we shall be deducting the huge financial cost of running the heaters required to heat the minimum usable space within the property. We are currently only heating the kitchen, lounge and 3 bedrooms to keep the heating costs to a minimum. The rooms that are too cold to use are the hallway and landing, the downstairs toilet, the downstairs office, the laundry room, the dining room, the largest upstairs bedroom and the family bathroom. Both the bathroom and toilet would be too dangerous to use any kind of electrical heating in them.

    Then there is the lack of hot water, also now heated by an electric immersion heater that we have to turn on and wait for an hour to heat up. We are having to run this for approximately 6 hours a day just for showers, let alone washing up, etc. Again costing a small fortune to run and again we are using the minimum amount possible to save on costs. We will also be deducting the cost of heating the water from the monthly rent until the boiler is safe and fully functioning.

    I have spoken to Southern Gas and Electricity to calculate the cost of running the fan heaters your Gas Engineer supplied us with. The 3 small fan heaters use 6 KWH and the 2 convection heaters we have managed to borrow also use 4 KWH. We can only heat 4 rooms to a minimum habitable temperature, out of all the rooms in this property. We have been forced to close the doors to the other rooms due to the extremely low temperatures making them uninhabitable. We are even having to wear extra clothes, jumpers, coats and even shoes indoors to keep warm.

    We have been forced to take the difficult financial decision not to run further heaters and heat the house properly, as it would be with the central heating working.

    We are currently living within the minimum amount of rooms possible. We are running the heaters only for about 15 hours out of every 24 hours. This is due to safety concerns about leaving them running at night whilst we sleep, as well as keeping the cost to a minimum.

    Southern Gas and Electric have estimated the 10 KWH used, over 15 hours, to heat the minimum living space we are using, is £17.28 per day. So far this will be £483.84 for the heaters alone, as of todays use.
    I will try to ascertain the cost of heating the water as soon as I can find out the amount of KWH it uses to run the immersion heater. I have been told a 3 KWH immersion heater will cost approx. £3.50 a day to use.

    We also cannot run anymore heaters than we are as it constantly causes the breaker switch to trip out even if we use the kettle. So we are having to turn off 2 heaters to use the kettle. So it is also impossible to use the heaters with a tumble drier, dishwasher or washing machine at all, without all of the downstairs sockets tripping out.

    With Christmas less than a week away now, we expect you would be aiming to get the boiler and Central heating to be safe and fully functioning by then. As it is costing you more than £17.28 per day for the electricity to heat this property, without the cost of heating the water yet. We believe it may be the cheapest solution for all concerned. As we did offer to arrange for the replacement of the boiler from the rental money in our last correspondence. This would again have saved money on electricity as well as everyones time.

    I believe we have been more than patient waiting 4 weeks without any contact from the Landlord or any real help from yourselves. Neither yourselves nor the Landlords have contacted us once to see if we are okay. No calls to let us know what is happening, nothing!



    Yours Sincerely

  • #2
    Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

    Hi veilside,

    You could add this to the mix:-

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/guidance.htm

    (Bottom of the page - 'Gas incidents')
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb


    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.


    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

      Forgot to say....
      Moved into property in July 2009 and had 1st 'CO' Carbon Monoxide leak within weeks of moving in...
      We asked for gas safe certificates the day we moved into property and had to wait a week for them to be supplied. What we got were 2 CORGI certificates that didn't have landlords details, Gas Safe registration details or where the appliance is fitted in the property. HSE and Gas Safe are investigating this....
      4 weeks ago we had another leak that set off the new 'CO' alarm. I got myself and my 18 month old son out of the house and to A&E. I turned off the gas before leaving and aired the property...
      I called the Letting agent and was told they would get the gas engineer in asap. Took 24hrs to get to us. The engineer and a guy from the agents arrived, tested the boiler, the tester showed another 'CO' Spill while testing. They left the boiler turned on and told me it was all safe, just high wind causing it. I was told to keep the door closed to the utility room and that will stop it leaking into the rest of the house. Later I called Gas Safe and was told to call HSE and report the leak, as we are Foster Carers. The next thing we hear is a knock at the door at 9pm that day from National Grid to cut off the boiler and issue a 'RIDDOR' on the boiler. This was arranged by the engineer who had decided maybe it was dangerous after all, when he got home and thought about it... the very same engineer that issued the certificates when we moved into the property.

      The HSE and Gas Supplier sent in a CORGI Inspector to write a report and test the boiler fully. He told us the boiler is fine, the flu is fine, but when you get wind from a certain direction if causes the 'CO' to come back down the flu and spill out into the property. He refused to reconnect the gas, as he was convinced it would do it agin and could kill someone...
      Since then, not even a call from the Landlord to see if we are okay, Nothing at all....
      The Letting agent hasn't called, I have to keep phoning them and was told it was down to the landlord. He then refused to give me the landlords contact details.
      So now we are up to 4 weeks with no hot water, so no showers, baths, washing, etc. Unless we run the immersion heater all day long.
      We have electric heaters, but as most people will know the rooms get cold so quickly when you switch them off....
      So every morning we are all freezing and spend all day trying to warm up....

      Now we have deep snow and we are soooo cold.......
      We just wanted the boiler fixed or replaced, but now we are angry as it looks like Christmas without water and heating!

      Any Idea's of what to do next to get this sorted???

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

        Hi veilside,

        1/ What type of boiler is it? (I'm guessing open-flued, but wall-mounted, free standing or back boiler behind a gas fire?)

        2/ Natural gas or LPG?

        3/ Is it fitted on or near an external wall?

        4/ Where does the flue go? (Into a brick chimney, or via a round pipe internally or externally?)

        5/ If ''round pipe', what does it look like? (corrugated?, metal? mineral fibre like asbestos?)

        6/ Are there any large structures nearby which could affect the function of the flue? (Buildings taller than your house, trees etc)
        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
        Also, is there adequate ventilation (non-closable) in the room where the boiler is fitted connecting to outside air?
        Last edited by charitynjw; 19th December 2009, 16:14:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
        CAVEAT LECTOR

        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
        Cohen, Herb


        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
        gets his brain a-going.
        Phelps, C. C.


        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
        The last words of John Sedgwick

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

          Hi Charity,
          1/ open-flued and wall mounted
          2/natural gas, std mains gas supply.
          3/on internal wall in utility room
          4/ flu goes into ceiling, up through roof void, to ridge tile vent on single storey extension....
          5/round solid metal pipe not corrugated....
          6/ only the main 2 storey part of the house as the flu comes out of the single storey extension and has an outlet that looks like a letter box either side of a pitched roof tile....
          There is floor vent under boiler and another one on wall opposite....

          The HSE inspector found the boiler functioning perfectly, the Flue worked well, but when the wind blows a certain direction it spills the CO into the room. The inspector said it will do it again, but can't predict when, so he agreed with me that it is dangerous. So he refused to reconnect the gas and left it RIDDOR......

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

            Hi veilside,

            Ok, most important - what room is the boiler in? If a bathroom, then it's a no-no (open-flued appliances not allowed!)
            If in a bedroom, the boiler 'size' is an issue - cannot be more than 14kW (gross input) - 12.7kW (net) & should incorporate a safety device to detect any build-up of combustion 'products'.

            Next, the ridge terminal should be at least 1.5m from higher structure (BS 5440-1/ 5.1.6.1.)

            If not, the flue, if 'natural draught' (ie not fan-assisted) will have to be extended vertically to at least 600mm above the taller structure ((or if the taller structure has a pitched roof facing the flue terminal, the flue height is governed by measuring horizontally 1.5m from the base of the terminal to the pitched roof) BS5440-1/ 5.1.6.1)

            It may be possible to fit a flue fan to the existing system - similar:-

            http://www.fluesystems.com/fans/index.htm

            (in-line model)

            Failing all that, the boiler will need changing - must be a condensing boiler nowadays (I think that there are exceptions to this rule, but the chance of being allowed is as rare as rocking horse sh...............hens teeth!!)
            I would suggest a room-sealed vertically flued one.

            Hope this helps.

            cnjw
            ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
            NB Room-sealed boilers can be fitted in bathrooms & bedrooms, but IEE regs need to be considered (esp in bathrooms)
            Last edited by charitynjw; 19th December 2009, 18:24:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
            CAVEAT LECTOR

            This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

            You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
            Cohen, Herb


            There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
            gets his brain a-going.
            Phelps, C. C.


            "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
            The last words of John Sedgwick

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

              Wow............Blimey........
              Thank you so much Cnjw.....
              The boiler is in a downstairs utility room with washing machine and tumble drier...
              The inspector said they shouldn't be in the same room as the lint, fluff and moisture can cause the open flue to get blocked as they are pulled into the vent....
              There is no fan in the flue as it is.....
              Apparently it also has a short stack in the flue, less than 12 inches, so he said didn't have much draw......
              I gotta ask..... how do you know all this??
              russ

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                Hi Russ,

                Amazing what you can glean from Love It! magazine & Sapphire's Problem Page, ennit!!

                Just joking - I was Training Manager for a national central heating company for a good while - training new recruits to pass ACS exams & retraining experienced operatives to renew their qualifications (needed every 5 years)

                A utility room is usually not a problem as long as the boiler is properly serviced annually (not just a 'perfomance' check, which is similar to a car emissions check) - but the room should be adequately ventilated (based on the boiler input) if open-flued. (BS5400-2)
                If a new boiler is fitted, utility room is good because a condensing boiler needs a small drain pipe going to a drain.

                Re the 'short stack' - I guess what is meant there is that the flue length is quite short.
                Can an in-line fan be sited in the single storey roof space?
                What is the distance between the ridge terminal & the main house wall?

                Reference would need to be made to the boiler & fan manufacturers' instructions before purchasing (they may be available by Googling)

                I can go into more detail re boiler size/room size/vent size, but would risk being labelled 'anal' by certain others who might be watching :tung: lol
                CAVEAT LECTOR

                This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                Cohen, Herb


                There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                gets his brain a-going.
                Phelps, C. C.


                "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                The last words of John Sedgwick

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                  NB When I asked re distance from flue terminal to wall, I meant an approximation.
                  I didn't mean for you to climb up on the roof! Not in this weather!
                  Although in a few days you could ask :27:
                  CAVEAT LECTOR

                  This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                  You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                  Cohen, Herb


                  There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                  gets his brain a-going.
                  Phelps, C. C.


                  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                  The last words of John Sedgwick

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                    Above ventilation BS should be BS 5440-2...................
                    CAVEAT LECTOR

                    This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                    Cohen, Herb


                    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                    gets his brain a-going.
                    Phelps, C. C.


                    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                    The last words of John Sedgwick

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                      Thanks Cnjw....
                      I just got out of Hospital lastnight so haven't been able to read up on here or do anything since weekend...
                      I ended up with bad chest infection and asthma attack sunday..... Nearly didn't make it.....
                      My fiancee called the letting agent and told them she was suing due to me nearly dying....
                      We had the Landlord call, an independant engineer has condemned the setup and told them a whole new C/H system needs fitting..... and they have agreed to do it before New Years......
                      Yippeeee heating within the next week....
                      He is going to fit a new combi boiler in the Double Garage attached to the house and run the flu out of the roof. Apparently he has just done the new flu fitting course that will be required after 2010.....
                      My fiancee said he seemed to know what he was talking about....
                      So fingers crossed....
                      Amazing what a tennant nearly dying can do for getting the landlords moving..... lol
                      Thanks agin Cnjw....
                      Happy Christmas....
                      Russ

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                        Glad it's sorted.

                        Sorry to read about the chest infection; hope it doesn't spoil the festivities.

                        Merry Xmas

                        :3560_7606:
                        CAVEAT LECTOR

                        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                        Cohen, Herb


                        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                        gets his brain a-going.
                        Phelps, C. C.


                        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                        The last words of John Sedgwick

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                          Bloody ell VS, I hope your ok now chuck, wondered where you had got to. I know now you were getting all flirty with some ladies in uniform, two timing bugger.
                          Seriously I hope you get sorted soon both health and heat wise and maybe a little wealth wise too.
                          All the best Nelly xx

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                            Blimmin hell Russ, talk about being on a sick bed before your Landlord dealt with the heating situation for you and your family.

                            I am so glad you have made a recovery and hope that you and your family have a great xmas and a happy and healthy new year.:2w32gd1:

                            Tuttsi xx

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: veilside's Carbon Monoxide poisoning

                              Awww Russ sorry to hear you've been unwell, lets hope things get sorted out for you now hun.
                              (((((((((((Hugs)))))))))))))) and try to have a good Christmas and lets all look forward to a better New Year.

                              Comment

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