Access Removed to Manhole & Wastewater pipe

[RedRuby]

Hi Again Redruby. thanks for the drawing, however case like this are better off seen, do you have any photos of your drain, From what you describe you are talking about waste water such as from the sink and washing machine etc, not raw sewage from the toilet. If this is the case then as a temporary measure, until you get a satisfactory solution, why not get some coarse stainless wire wool and form a plug in the pipe under the drain cover, it will be loose enough to allow water to pass yet will stop rats getting up. As I say it would only be a temporary measure.

When the guy put the camera through the pipe work and came across the angle that stopped the survey, did give you the distance travelled by the camera. This is usual so that you can measure to where the angle is. Also Is it possible he went past the inspection pit of 197 and continued to the combined drain link to the main sewage, that would have been a left hand angle.

Just another point, did he give you a copy of the inspection camera recording, this would also help you to diagnose the pipework.

Thank you for your reply.

I do have photos of inside my manhole but how will that help?. I'm afraid putting wire wool in there is not possible as there is raw sewage going through the combined drain from 201 who have connected two toilets to it. The problem is not how to stop the rats, I know how to do that. It is not having the access to stop the rats which is my issue. If the sewer is completely private as stated in the conveyance then i'll just approach my neighbours from this point of view and ask for help on this forum to help me do that from the legal side. If the sewer has been partially or fully adopted by our water authority, that changes things; Is my right to access my neighbours property to still legal? Am I legally allowed by them to put rat flaps in the system?

He did say something to me verbally regards the distance but I cannot remember details. I received no report or a copy of the footage. I've heard nothing more from them and this was around 9 months or so ago. They sent him reluctantly because I created a fuss.

One needs to remember that I have drawn where my neighbours wastewater drains were before the two kitchen extensions were built because that was the last time I knew where they were. On both sides they have put in additional toilets and bathrooms and changed where the kitchens used to be so the drainage will have changed drastically. The manholes will still be in the same place I suspect, as will the combined drain but my guess is there will be additional drains connected. None of this information has been made available by our Council on the Planning Register however.

[RedRuby]

Hi Again Redruby. thanks for the drawing, however case like this are better off seen, do you have any photos of your drain, From what you describe you are talking about waste water such as from the sink and washing machine etc, not raw sewage from the toilet. If this is the case then as a temporary measure, until you get a satisfactory solution, why not get some coarse stainless wire wool and form a plug in the pipe under the drain cover, it will be loose enough to allow water to pass yet will stop rats getting up. As I say it would only be a temporary measure.

When the guy put the camera through the pipe work and came across the angle that stopped the survey, did give you the distance travelled by the camera. This is usual so that you can measure to where the angle is. Also Is it possible he went past the inspection pit of 197 and continued to the combined drain link to the main sewage, that would have been a left hand angle.

Just another point, did he give you a copy of the inspection camera recording, this would also help you to diagnose the pipework.

Thank you for your reply.

I do have photos of what is inside my manhole but how will that help? I'm afraid there is raw sewage going through the combined drain from 201 as they have connected two toilets to it. 197 have also connected at least one toilet to it and so have 195. My property has one toilet connected to it. I understand your idea re wire wool. Rats hate it. However, wire wool will not hold in the drain, the force of the water will dislodge it and I could end up causing a blockage further down the line. Parts of the sewer system are old as the properties are coming up for 100 years old. Goodness knows the last time it was jetted if ever.

My problem is not how to stop the rats, my issue is not having access to stop them. If I knew the sewer system is completely private then I would approach my neighbours on the basis of what is written in the Title Deeds and Conveyance and seek legal help here in how to do that. But I don't know if it is and that is a big problem. If the water authority have partially or fully taken over our sewer system, am I allowed to fit the rat flaps? Is my right to access my neighbours property to fit the rat flaps still legal? Questions I cannot currently answer.

The camera guy did verbally say something regards distance but I cannot recall what it was in relation to. I wasn't supplied with a copy of the footage nor a report.

The neighbours at 197 and 201 have had so much building work carried out that it is likely additional connections have been added to the sewer system. Each property now has two bathrooms when there was originally one. Plus three toilets where there was only one. Plus moving a kitchen out of the original property and into a new extension. Lots of opportunity for redundant old pipes etc. The manholes will likely be in the same place I suspect as should be the combined drain, but i'd be amazed if there weren't a number of new drain connections and associated changes.

[RedRuby]

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My posts are not being published again. Can you help please?

[EXC]

EXC

My posts are not being published again. Can you help please?

Done and sorry. It's probably a word or combination of words that the filter doesn't like for some reason.

[tesla6518]

Hi Redruby, as it stands at the moment you are far from taking legal action and therefore any further comments at this point would not be legal and not really for this site.

What I would recommend is go to your local council planning control website and search for the planning application for both houses either side of you, this is done by address. Here you can obtain the architects information, I would contact them and see if they can assist you with the construction plans which should consist of a seperate set of drawings for groundworks (foundations) and drainage. From there you can start to diagnose your system and hopefully plan ahead. A useful website is "Lanes for Drains" they are the people I used for a commercial pipe survey using the robot, On their website is a comprehensive guide to drainage and problems. I would also consult building regulation Part H (they are now all combined as a single PDF download) after all that if you still need to resort to legal action, then you can return to this site for advice.

Hope this helps

[RedRuby]

Hi Redruby, as it stands at the moment you are far from taking legal action and therefore any further comments at this point would not be legal and not really for this site.

What I would recommend is go to your local council planning control website and search for the planning application for both houses either side of you, this is done by address. Here you can obtain the architects information, I would contact them and see if they can assist you with the construction plans which should consist of a seperate set of drawings for groundworks (foundations) and drainage. From there you can start to diagnose your system and hopefully plan ahead. A useful website is "Lanes for Drains" they are the people I used for a commercial pipe survey using the robot, On their website is a comprehensive guide to drainage and problems. I would also consult building regulation Part H (they are now all combined as a single PDF download) after all that if you still need to resort to legal action, then you can return to this site for advice.

Hope this helps

Thank you Tesla. Contacting the architects directly is a good shout.

I think there is a loss of translation or misunderstanding here though.

For the purpose of clarity, I shall try and wrap up this entire thread as succinctly as possible:

Our property has rats. The rats are coming up from the sewer under the highway at Acacia Road, through the sewer system at 195/197 and into our property at 199. We have paid a £500 deposit to a Pest Control Company to survey the sewer system and find the discrepancies in said sewer system so that they can be fixed. Part of the Pest Control Company's work is to fit rat flaps in the sewer system to prevent the rats from gaining access into our home but this is also something I can undertake myself and hope to. 197 have covered over the manhole under their property resulting in lack of access to fit rat flap into my wastewater drain.

Our property has a conveyance dated around 1900 (exact year witheld for privacy) which states access rights/easements to us at 199 and our neighbours at 195, 197 and 201 (house numbers are fictional for privacy) for all neighbours to be legally permitted entry into each others property/land for the purpose of cleansing, repairing or renewing the combined drain (See posts #6 and #7). Our sewer system has historically been a private sewer system as evidenced in the Conveyance from the Title Deeds/Register.

In 2011, Ofwat/Government introduced national legislation by way of The Water Industry Act (schemes for Adoption of Private Sewers 2011) which appears to have overridden the previous 1991 legislation rules on the adoption of private sewers; Section 102 of the Water Industry Act 1991. Our sewer system would still be 100% owned and maintained by us under the 1991 legislation. From what I can understand, the 2011 legislation suggests water authorities now own all the existing private sewers built prior to July 2011 up and down the country and they are now all public sewers and maintained by whichever water authority they fall under. I am unsure if I have interpreted this information correctly or not and was hoping for some legal insight into this from the forum.

Our Water Authority is Southern Water. If Southern Water have adopted our private sewer, it is no longer a private sewer and is now a public sewer. My previous legal rights to fit rat flaps and/or have the Pest Control Company survey what I thought was our private sewer system are questionable at best or at worst may be outright illegal. Infact, I may well be trespassing on my neighbours property if I have misunderstood where I stand. My £500 deposit is likely lost. Southern Water are not forthcoming with helping us. I also don't understand if and how Ofwat/Government can just dispense with our 100 year old or so conveyance/legal rights? des8 you greatly helped me last time with regards to issues of trespass, would you please cast your eye over this thread and advise please?

In the meantime, it is coming up for a year since we discovered the rats. They are destroying my property and my sanity. Anyone who has suffered them will understand where I am coming from.


I plan to do the following:

1. Send a FOI to Southern Water to ask if they have formally adopted our sewer system

2. Send a request or FOI to our council and request all plans, documentation and drawings with regard to drainage plans for both extensions on either side of our property.

3. Contact the planners/architects of both extensions and ask to see their plans for drainage.


I will update the thread when I have received new information.

Many thanks

[des8]

First of all , commiseration on your problem.
I know exactly what you are dealing with as my neighbour keeps chickens, so I have rats that burrow through underground
and the climb up internally through our 2 foot thick rubble stone walls.

I note your easement is "for the purpose of cleansing repairing and renewing the said combined drain".
It does not mention "for the fitting of rat flaps", so you would need to be careful trying to obtain an injunction

I understand (perhaps incorrectly!) that the regulations regarding the transfer of private sewers to the sewerage companies would mean that you are responsible for the short diagonal pipe from your property to the combined drain.(altho' as soon as the drain leaves your curtilage it becomes the responsibility of the company)
The combined drain would be the responsibility of your sewerage company
The companies don't formally have to adopt the sewer, they are automatically responsible for it even if they don't know of its existence.
Doesn't your local CC have an online facility to see all planning decisions & plans etc? Might be quicker than a FOI

Did your neighbours lay their new kitchen floor themselves, or did they use a contractor?
If the latter it could be the contractor is liable for the cost of opening up the inspection chamber.
It really is a schoolboy error to seal an inspection chamber .... what did they think it was there for?

[des8]

To approach your problem from a different angle:

Have you spoken to the other householders in your terrace?
Presumably your not the only one experiencing unwanted furry visitors.

If you were to seal off your drain, it might only be a partial answer.
I would not be surprised to find that up in the lofts there is a rat highway along the length of the terrace, or they are using the guttering.
Seal your drain pipe, but they might still get entry via neighbouring properties

If your neighbours are experiencing a similar infestation it might be worth trying to organise them so you could make a joint request to install a rat flap where your combined pipe joins the main sewer.
You could discuss with the sewerage company who pays for it etc etc. I would expect they would want to use their own contractors.

[RedRuby]

Thank you for your replies Des8.

I can only sympathise with you re rats. I am in the midst of clearing the loft of the soiled insulation etc. So far we have found skeletal remains of rats, their latrine areas and holes in the lathe & plaster floor where they have chewed through the wood. We are only halfway through the clearance and yet to uncover the full scale of the damage.

We have spoken to the neighbours at 195, 197 and 201. We are the only ones complaining of rats in our property(s) and that is likely because we are the only property without an extension. BPCA (British Pest Control Association) talk about this as a factor in rat infestations.

In your initial reply, you talk about an injunction. Could you expand on this please ie. why, what, how?

Our Council does have an online planning facility in the way of a Planning Register which I have checked and re-checked for both sets of extensions on either side but there are no plans or documentation with regards to drainage plans for either. On the side of 201, there is one line written on one of the plans which states the drainage is to be relayed according to the instruction of the Building Control Inspector. No details of what the Building Inspector advised or signed off are available on the Planning Register.

I do not know who laid the kitchen tiles in my neighbours kitchen extension. It could as easily have been a contractor as it could have been the homeowner with help from family.

I have a trailcam which is being put into both inspection chambers at the front and rear of the property as we speak. I have already caught a rat on film inthe chamber at the rear. I am confident the root of the problem is the sewer system. I can easily deal with the guttering etc if that is also an issue but it is the legal side of things I really need the help with as I am not confident.

Many thanks

[des8]

Re injunction:
You have the benefit of an easement which gives you the right of access so you can clean, repair, renew the combined drain and the common drain.
Your right of access has been "interrupted".
If your neighbours refuse to reinstate it you could warn them that you will consider applying to the courts for a court order (injunction) to restore it.
Politely tell them that is not a course of action you wish to undertake, but will if necessary.
If you get that far, then confirm your conversation in writing by letter (free certificate of posting from PO)

Sounds easy, but full of pitfalls
For a start the court might not grant it, and may only award damages
Then there is the cost aspect if your neighbours dispute it (you aren't looking to cleanse etc but to fit rat flaps)
And you won't be exchanging Christmas cards in future.

Is there any possibility of building a new inspection chamber on your own ground, breaking into the combined drain and redirecting your waste pipe into the new access.
Whether that is possible physically or not due to space constraints, or would be permitted by the sewerage company is something to be ascertained

[RedRuby]

Thank you for explaining this to me Des8, I fully understand what you are saying.

I suspect it could be possible to re-route our private wastewater drain onto our land, however I worry about the expense of this. That would be a vast sum of money if not covered by insurance.

Ok, if neither I nor the Pest Control Company are legally able to fit a rat flap to my wastewater drain under my neighbours property then perhaps a different tack needs to be taken.

Assuming Southern Water are responsible for the sewer, perhaps my course of action should be to press them for repairs or renewal. The rat flaps are a sort of cheap sticking plaster for the real issue anyhow, which is the suspected discrepancies in the drain system ie. breakage and droppage. So far, they have not been an easy water authority to deal with. We are still waiting for the manhole cover at the front of the property to be repaired, we have been waiting since June/July time last year.

Do you think or know if the 2011 Water Act legislation cancels my rights/easements as specified in the conveyance? I am still quite confused about how these two pieces of legal rights work together.

Thank-you for your time, you have been very helpful and I am very grateful.

[des8]

I don't think the Act removes your right to access the pipe.

You could try telling Southern Water what you need doing.
If they refuse or drag their heels use their complaints system.

[RedRuby]

Many thanks Des8.

I shall soldier on with the FOIs and requests from Southern Water and the Council and return when I have something to update the thread with.

Thanks again

[RedRuby]

I thought I'd update this thread as to where I am. Please read to the end as I have unwittingly discovered another problem in addition to the first.

For clarity, the shared lateral drains are indeed Southern Water's responsibility and the waste connections to the shared drain are solely the responsibility of the homeowner.

All has been quiet on the rat front until about a month ago with the change in weather. They are back and the first thing I knew about it was the resultant blow flies from a decaying corpse in the walls/under the floor so it was action stations again.

A couple of weeks ago I fitted rat flaps on my wastewater connections in the manhole at the front of my neighbour's property with the consent and help of said neighbour. All was well. In doing so I discovered my front drain is indeed broken and I'm thinking and hoping that this is the way the rats have entered into my home and the only way they are entering. I am obviously disappointed to discover such costly damage but also relieved that I may have pinpointed their access point.

However, if there are still rats in the loft in a couple of weeks time then this indicates there is another access point other than my broken front drain and that the drains at the back of the property are also broken. The ones the neighbour has covered over. So far, neighbour has been very helpful with allowing me access and has also helped me to fit the flaps. I am hoping this will extend to the back of the property but I am certain they will not be overjoyed in removing some of their floor over the manhole. I may need further help from the forum but we shall see.

With all this investigation into drains due to the rats I have discovered my neighbour on the other side has connected their drain into my private drain (via a t-junction I imagine) and without my knowledge nor consent. I still have an outside toilet, a hangover from before toilets were put indoors. I barely use the thing other than in emergency but it is this waste connection they have connected to. This would have happened when they built their rear kitchen extension back in 2007-2009. By this, I don't mean the shared lateral drain, I mean my private waste connection which I am legally and financially responsible for. What are the implications of this and what can be done about it? I am still in shock to be honest.

[RedRuby]

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I am trying to post but each time I do, the thread does not show my posts. Could you help please? Many thanks