Bujon - Employment Tribunal Help Please

[mariefab]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

You will not get justice.
The only thing that the Tribunal could give you is compensation (I'm assumung that re-instatement isn't likely).
If it's possible to get a settlement approaching the amount that a Tribunal could award you should do so.
You haven't yet touched the surface of the stress you are in for if this goes all the way.

If this goes to a hearing the Tribunal will base their decision on the facts that they find. Some of those fact will be determined by the Tribunal deciding which version of the truth they believe, yours or the Respondents. You claim that your employer was unreasonable, if you look reasonable in comparison it could make it more likely that the Tribunal will believe your version of events.
A willingness to negotiate a settlement in order to avoid court action is reasonable.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

You will not get justice.
The only thing that the Tribunal could give you is compensation (I'm assumung that re-instatement isn't likely).

This is something you can ask for in your ET1 under item 9.1 - what you want if your claim is successful. You can tick the box saying you' like to get your old job back and compensation of the one saying you want another job with same employer or associated employer and compensation. Most people do not seek reinstatement or even re-engagement simply because the working relationship with the respondent would have broken down beyond repair. :mmph:

If it's possible to get a settlement approaching the amount that a Tribunal could award you should do so.
You haven't yet touched the surface of the stress you are in for if this goes all the way.

Acceptable settlements are often estimated at around half what you've got on your schedule of loss. If you've found other work since being dismissal, earnings for the period(s) you've been working would be deducted from any award, which is otherwise capped at a year's worth of lost earnings. Benefits claimed (JSA but not HB) would be deducted from the final award. The respondent still has to pay that amount back to the DWP though. So if you've had work for six months and been unemployed for six months, your award would only be for six months in relation to loss of earnings, however, there are other bits added to the schedule such as wrongful dismissal and basic award and sometimes a 25% uplift for not following the ACAS code (if applicable). :grin:

The ET will also take into account your efforts to mitigate your loss, i.e. you'd have to show you were doing your best to find work. Their criteria for this may not necessarily be the same as that applied by the DWP for the purposes of JSA.

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I put on my ET1 form a note that I offered the respondent a settlement figure 40% the amount I'll be claiming on the schedule of loss during pre claim conciliation, but that this was rejected, with only a rationale being offered! I hope that that will show a willingness to be reasonable and amicable in an attempt to resolve. I do think the strategy is to see if I'll go all the way, as they have nothing to lose until that point! They are being represented by an insurance business service provider.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I put on my ET1 form a note that I offered the respondent a settlement figure 40% the amount I'll be claiming on the schedule of loss during pre claim conciliation, but that this was rejected, with only a rationale being offered! I hope that that will show a willingness to be reasonable and amicable in an attempt to resolve. I do think the strategy is to see if I'll go all the way, as they have nothing to lose until that point! They are being represented by an insurance business service provider.

Normally you wouldn't put settlement offers/proposals on the ET1, those are made separately by letter. Before submitting a claim I sent a letter before action with a figure that was a third of the amount on the schedule (which had not been produced yet). At that point the amount would have been acceptable since it had just been a couple of months and it would have saved all sides a lot of hassle and cost. As it stands, the respondent has probably spent more than that in legal fees alone, I don't think they had that kind of insurance given the way their business was run. Insurance companies can be quite picky with regards to what they are willing to pay for and under what circumstances. They always try their best not to pay. :lol:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Ah good to hear it maybe costing them something to defend, but they use an external business services company for all HR advise and Litigation to include defense at tribunal. I think the insurance is backed by the same business services company or sister company.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I'm beginning to realise that! I now have a conciliation officer pressing me to start negotiations through them for a possible resolution. The way I'm feeling is to play hard on that front and say I want to see justice done, so negotiations are futile as they will not get the resolution I'm seeking.

What sort of resolution is that?

If the respondents don't wish to go to tribunal then they can make a once only offer at an early stage to which I may or may not respond. How would you approach that side of things?

It all depends on the offer they make, bearing in mind the risk factor and the 'bird in the hand better than two in the bush' argument. :decision:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Well the perpetrator is a serial bully, 6 staff have left because of that so called 'management style', so I really want to push it all the way (no-one has done this before), to at least open the door a little for others to potentially follow, which may make them address the company attitude towards bullying and harassment more broadly. Financial awards I'd be seeking are only my genuine losses. I was just wondering if there was a tactic I could use through conciliation talks which might allow them to acknowledge they're in the wrong, and that I'm the victim not the villain, or should I simply let it run it's course and simply say to the conciliation officer I'm not interested in discussions in order to prompt them to kick off? Maybe I'm over thinking it but the LRA talks at pre claim stage got absolutely nowhere!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Well the perpetrator is a serial bully, 6 staff have left because of that so called 'management style', so I really want to push it all the way (no-one has done this before), to at least open the door a little for others to potentially follow, which may make them address the company attitude towards bullying and harassment more broadly. Financial awards I'd be seeking are only my genuine losses. I was just wondering if there was a tactic I could use through conciliation talks which might allow them to acknowledge they're in the wrong, and that I'm the victim not the villain, or should I simply let it run it's course and simply say to the conciliation officer I'm not interested in discussions in order to prompt them to kick off? Maybe I'm over thinking it but the LRA talks at pre claim stage got absolutely nowhere!

The purpose of conciliation is to negotiate a settlement and settlements are usually agreed without any admission of liability, for commercial reasons, so very unlikely they'd ever admit to being in the wrong. :mmph:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Umm that would be a bit of a concern. Part of me wished to just find another job and leave, but I opted to battle on and take them head on over the issue I guess. I suspect they won't wish to settle anyhow, they are just that way inclined. They carry an 'untouchables' attitude where they genuinely feel everyone who works for them should be thankful they have a job, and don't like anyone challenging that ethos.
I guess I'll tell the conciliation officer, I'm happy to conciliate in principle only on the condition of discussing an early settlement to save them having to go to tribunal and that they can proceed with an offer if they so wish, and in the meantime I'll be fully preparing for the hearing.

[ritemaster]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

If they offered a settlement which was less than the earnings you've lost to date, would it be seen as unreasonable to decline it?

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

Is it reasonable to decline an unreasonable offer?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

If they offered a settlement which was less than the earnings you've lost to date, would it be seen as unreasonable to decline it?

If your employment ended recently and you are still at the early conciliation stage, your earnings lost to date wouldn't be as much as the projected losses included in a schedule of loss, nor would a settlement include any benefits recoupment so it would be in their best interests to settle at this stage.

Bear in mind in your schedule of loss you'd include:

• Wrongful dismissal (notice pay) = as many weeks' notice (based on net pay) as you were entitled to under your contract, most commonly 4.
• Basic award which is the same as statutory redundancy pay you'd have been entitled to, capped @ £464/week.
• Compensatory award which is the net pay you've lost to date minus the notice pay

[ritemaster]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

On the back of that answer, if they offered a settlement which was less than the total award you may get in the courtroom, would it be seen as unreasonable to decline that?

I know there is no guarantee of how much you will be awarded, or even if you'll win your case, but if you have a very strong case and feel you could get a better deal in the court, shouldn't you try?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

One thing to bear in mind is that the process can take a very long time and the hearing may be nearly a year after your dismissal. You may or may not find new employment in that time. The compensatory award is up to a year (if you've not found work). The schedule of loss can have a projection for loss of earnings for up to a full year. By the time you go to a hearing your potential award could well be much higher than your losses to date at this point in time, but there's no guarantee that you'll win or that you'll be awarded the maximum amount. You are not obliged to accept a settlement but if you don't you may "live to regret it" so to speak. At the end of the day the decision is yours. :decision:

You need to realistically estimate your chances of success at the ET. It helps to have the opinion of an employment lawyer who can assess your case and give you an estimated percentage of success. Once upon a time I was given a 20% chance so I accepted a small, almost derisory settlement with an agreed reference. I had been warned about costs against me and the other side had hired Baker & McKenzie to represent them. :scared:

[Bujon]

Re: 28 day time limit for ET3 form

I think it's one of those things, see if a settlement offer is even on the table before deciding the benefits of accepting it. I think that is why I was wondering if there were any tactic you could adopt at the early conciliation stages to prompt an early offer and therefore make a judgement call on the most reasonable outcome.