Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

[teaboy2]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Regardless of differences in views, the law is clear. Alcoholism is an addiction and well known to be the result of mental illness i.e. depression, stress, or post traumatic stress or other mental illnesses. End of the day we know nothing about the OP, who he is, his past, what hes been through and suffered during life (perhaps abuse, bullying etc) - Some people can cope with the cruelty of life better than others, some can not and hence the saying "drowning ones sorrows", some just give up all together and either take their own life's, or burying themselves away and do nothing but drink day and night - At least the OP is fighting back and been clean for 3 years now. So am sorry but regardless of the opinion on whether alcoholism is a disease or not (its not, its an addiction and therefore a mental illness), no one here has the right to judge the OP for his life choices, as not one of you even know them, its like judging a book by its cover if you do.

Its completely irrelevant that the OP used to be dependent on alcohol in any case, given hes been clean for 3 years, as they are no longer dependent on it. But he does have serious other health issues, physical and mental, that he has to live with as a result of his past drinking. Yes he should have told his employers, but he didn't mostly likely because of his mental state of mind, he won't be the first and he won't be the last to not tell his employers due to mental state of mind. The fact is the employer never picked up on it, despite knowing he was a recovering alcoholic, so in my view the employer didn't do enough to ensure his welfare, as any respectable employer would have requested copies of his medical records and regular updates!

[judgemental24]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Alcoholism and Drug Addiction might not have the full descriptors of protection under the Equality Act 2010, But secondary conditions do.

I am talking of Cirrhosis of the liver, blood poisoning, HIV, hepatitis, Narcosis, permanent cognitive dysfunction, etc, etc

[Acjb007]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

So in order to get work on my side and give a nutral reference could I say the company didn't look after my welfare and check on my progress like hospital visits. Due to my health deteriating thus affecting my mental health which may have lead to my dishonesty I feel work at least can help my future? My GP I'm sure would write to them saying it's a miracle I have performed the role with my condition and that I have done so well staying sober and getting my life back on track. A negative reference is only going to lead down one path and that path could cause a relapse. Worth a shot?

- - - Updated - - -

I only have 4 days left to appeal.

[MissFM]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Most of us have no idea (until some form of personal experience intervenes) how much of an individual the liver regulates both physically and psychologically. Liver damage, whether due to alcohol or the many other possible causal factors, seriously impairs day to day existence on very many levels. Once physical symptoms appear, the prognosis is often not optimistic without a transplant as the OP has said, and a transplant is by no means a cakewalk.

I absolutely agree that the OP is to be thoroughly applauded for tackling his addiction head on and, like most on this thread, have huge compassion for the situation in which you find yourself, Acjb.

Having said that, I don't think any arguments or justifications could have any leverage at all, legal or otherwise, with the employer and also share the opinion that any attempt to apply pressure would be counterproductive.

The only (slim) chance I can see would be to throw yourself on their mercy, express how very sorry you are for what you did, stress that you are so shocked by your actions that you are seeking further professional help and thank them for not involving the police. Ask for their further compassion and support in providing a neutral reference, making it clear that you ask this as an act of human generosity and goodwill on their part, not an obligation. Explain how such a gesture would cost them nothing but have very significant consequences for your continued recovery.

The fact that your manager visited you in hospital shows evidence that a human heart beats there, at least.

I hope it works out for you x

[stevemLS]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

"Its completely irrelevant that the OP used to be dependent on alcohol in any case, given hes been clean for 3 years, as they are no longer dependent on it. But he does have serious other health issues, physical and mental, that he has to live with as a result of his past drinking. Yes he should have told his employers, but he didn't mostly likely because of his mental state of mind, he won't be the first and he won't be the last to not tell his employers due to mental state of mind. The fact is the employer never picked up on it, despite knowing he was a recovering alcoholic, so in my view the employer didn't do enough to ensure his welfare, as any respectable employer would have requested copies of his medical records and regular updates!"

(Still can't work out multiple quotes).

However, I profoundly disagree with this. The employer, in the absence of evidence of current illness, is under no duty whatever to monitor in the way suggested here. Indeed, in other circumstances I can almost hear howls of outrage into the gross intrusion this would represent.

"So in order to get work on my side and give a nutral reference could I say the company didn't look after my welfare and check on my progress like hospital visits. Due to my health deteriating thus affecting my mental health which may have lead to my dishonesty I feel work at least can help my future? My GP I'm sure would write to them saying it's a miracle I have performed the role with my condition and that I have done so well staying sober and getting my life back on track. A negative reference is only going to lead down one path and that path could cause a relapse. Worth a shot?"

Similarly and regrettably, OP has had considerable compassion and, in the most part, lack of judgment on this Board. However, despite professing to be contrite, in fact you have attempted to rationalise and justify that which simply cannot be justified. There is not a shred of evidence that there is any causal link between your mental health and what you did.

And to move now to some crude attempt at emotional blackmail is, in my view, reprehensible.

I'm afraid the sympathy and compassion I felt towards OP at the outset is evaporating. Sorry.

[Mr $quanda£ot]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Realistically, the OP will be on the Social from now on, be it JSA or ESA.

His/her chances of employment in the near future are grim.

[teaboy2]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

"Its completely irrelevant that the OP used to be dependent on alcohol in any case, given hes been clean for 3 years, as they are no longer dependent on it. But he does have serious other health issues, physical and mental, that he has to live with as a result of his past drinking. Yes he should have told his employers, but he didn't mostly likely because of his mental state of mind, he won't be the first and he won't be the last to not tell his employers due to mental state of mind. The fact is the employer never picked up on it, despite knowing he was a recovering alcoholic, so in my view the employer didn't do enough to ensure his welfare, as any respectable employer would have requested copies of his medical records and regular updates!"

(Still can't work out multiple quotes).

However, I profoundly disagree with this. The employer, in the absence of evidence of current illness, is under no duty whatever to monitor in the way suggested here. Indeed, in other circumstances I can almost hear howls of outrage into the gross intrusion this would represent.

"So in order to get work on my side and give a nutral reference could I say the company didn't look after my welfare and check on my progress like hospital visits. Due to my health deteriating thus affecting my mental health which may have lead to my dishonesty I feel work at least can help my future? My GP I'm sure would write to them saying it's a miracle I have performed the role with my condition and that I have done so well staying sober and getting my life back on track. A negative reference is only going to lead down one path and that path could cause a relapse. Worth a shot?"

Similarly and regrettably, OP has had considerable compassion and, in the most part, lack of judgment on this Board. However, despite professing to be contrite, in fact you have attempted to rationalise and justify that which simply cannot be justified. There is not a shred of evidence that there is any causal link between your mental health and what you did.

And to move now to some crude attempt at emotional blackmail is, in my view, reprehensible.

I'm afraid the sympathy and compassion I felt towards OP at the outset is evaporating. Sorry.

Actually, they should have asked for medical records upon his return to work from his stay in hospital 3 years ago and sought regular updates about his condition. Primary to see if the condition that put him in hospital would effect his welfare at work or his ability to safely perform his work without risk of effecting his health or the health of others, and to determine if reasonable adjustments would need to be made! Yes some may see it as invasion of privacy, but an employer has the right to request them to ensure the safety/welfare of said employer and others in the event the illness could be passed to other employees (HIV, hepatitis etc). So in my view the fact they never asked is a breach of their duty of care. Though am not saying this would help the OP's present circumstances!

Also if the employer noticed something wasn't quite right with the OP mental health wise, then they have a duty to look in to it and make sure he is ok! From the sounds of it, for the last 3 years his mental health has deteriorated leading to him stealing. I honestly find it very hard to believe that neither the employer nor other employees noticed such deterioration. Its more likely they did notice, but simply didn't know how to handle it or simply didn't want to get involved, as it per it is in a lot of such cases.

Also their has been many people come to this forum, that has been sack for stealing from work, without mental illness problems, who we have help and not judged at all. Yet because the OP has been open about his health and yes his mental health could have resulted him stealing (diminished responsibility). I find it shocking that some are not prepared to help him, purely because he admits to his problems! Yet are perfectly willing to help others that never had any mental issue and stole because they could and because they thought they would not get caught! Look at the retail loss prevention thread, they all were caught stealing, some were innocent mistake, but vast majority owned up to it, yet we all helped them without judging them or judging them on their reason for stealing!

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Also their has been many people come to this forum, that has been sack for stealing from work, without mental illness problems, who we have help and not judged at all. Yet because the OP has been open about his health and yes his mental health could have resulted him stealing (diminished responsibility). I find it shocking that some are not prepared to help him, purely because he admits to his problems! Yet are perfectly willing to help others that never had any mental issue and stole because they could and because they thought they would not get caught! Look at the retail loss prevention thread, they all were caught stealing, some were innocent mistake, but vast majority owned up to it, yet we all helped them without judging them or judging them on their reason for stealing!

I fully agree that this isn't the place to judge people and that's why they come here. The problem I can see is that the OP doesn't have a realistic prospect of succeeding in terms of taking action against their employers for unfair dismissal since stealing is a form of gross misconduct. :ohwell: As a claimant he wouldn't succeed. Things would be different if he found himself in the position of a defendant, i.e. if they were taking civil action for the recovery of the value of the goods stolen (as is the case on the RLP threads) or criminal action and was facing a magistrates court hearing. The mitigating circumstances would come into play here but they are not enough to argue he shouldn't have been dismissed from work which is the real issue here.

The only avenue I can see here is what has already been discussed above, i.e. to appeal to the ex-employers good nature (provided they have one which isn't always the case) and beg for a neutral reference to be provided based on the mitigating circumstances already mentioned. ray: ray: ray: I doubt it would do much good if the OP were to approach them arguing they were in somehow in breach of their duty of care because that would just antagonise them. :confused2:

The issues here are moral rather than legal, I just can't see any way the law could be used to even get them to consider a neutral reference and I'm well acquainted with the tactic of issuing an ET claim in order to put pressure on the respondents to offer at the very least, an agreed reference if not a financial settlement (been there, doing that twice! ). It's hard enough being a claimant when you are in good physical and mental health (at least in theory :grin, have legal representation and the respondent's arguments are largely brown, soft matter. :mmph:

[wales01man]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

I think the OP should go and get the help he needs I don't think we are judging the OP as much as we are giving our Opinions on the problems caused by drink.
Hopefully they can get their problems sorted and go back to a job uncertain whether he will get the reference they hope for.

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

I was watching Room 101 the other day and Fay Ripley's target was people who claim to 'say it as it is' or be brutally honest , therefore I nominate Mr Squanderlot for Room 101 .

Lots of people who have been dismissed for gross misconduct get to move on with their lives and get new jobs , we still don't know what sort of reference the company would supply . It does strike me that maybe the OP should be claiming ESA and or PIP if their physical and mental state is as poor as it seems .

I know how hard it is but I think the OP has to face up to what happened and stop trying to make excuses. Mitigation is one thing, excuses are IMO different

[Mr $quanda£ot]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

I was watching Room 101 the other day and Fay Ripley's target was people who claim to 'say it as it is' or be brutally honest , therefore I nominate Mr Squanderlot for Room 101 .

Lots of people who have been dismissed for gross misconduct get to move on with their lives and get new jobs , we still don't know what sort of reference the company would supply . It does strike me that maybe the OP should be claiming ESA and or PIP if their physical and mental state is as poor as it seems .

I know how hard it is but I think the OP has to face up to what happened and stop trying to make excuses. Mitigation is one thing, excuses are IMO different

I'd rather be honest than give people false hopes. Sometimes it is seen as being rude, however.

Being an employment lawyer must be tough in a sense that often you got to tell people what they don't want to hear, especially if you are representing employees.

I don't mind going to Room 101

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

I'd rather be honest than give people false hopes. Sometimes it is seen as being rude, however.

I think I've also been quite honest here when I said they wouldn't succeed through the legal route.

Being an employment lawyer must be tough in a sense that often you got to tell people what they don't want to hear, especially if you are representing employees.

I don't mind going to Room 101

The majority of employment lawyers represent respondents because they are the ones who can afford to pay their fees. :mmph:
There are times when the above situation can be reversed and the employment lawyer can tell a claimant exactly what a claimant wants to hear though. :lalala::dance: Yesterday was one of those times. :bounce:

[Berniethebolt]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Without sidetracking the thread, it's not about giving false hope but more about phrasing . Be glass half full not half empty. Oh by the way its do as I say not as I do- I am the ultimate glass half empty man

[Acjb007]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Teaboy2: Thank you for standing up for me.

I spoke with Acas today and ran through the whole situation. They said basically although I did wrong and work made a few errors there is no case for an appeal. However as my employer point blankly refused to look at my medical history and notes they have jeopardised the whole disciplinary. My notes etc were in a folder which remained shut during the whole process. Below I've cut and pasted what they sent me.

Ignoring evidence in favour of the employee’s mitigation whilst considering the evidence against it Even where an employer is convinced that the employee is in the wrong, any explanation or evidence to the contrary should not be disregarded; it should be investigated properly. Employers must ensure that they do not ignore any medical reports and that they do not fail to act on any recommendations made in them. All evidence that the employer intends to rely on should be provided to the employee ahead of any disciplinary hearing to allow adequate time to prepare a defence.

Acas also said what Teaboy2 mentioned. They have a duty to monitor my health. Liver disease can be classed as a disability and work should have made adjustments to meet my medical needs.

I'm seeing my doctor tomorrow to get a letter backing up that my condition can cause irrationall thoughts, confusion, memory loss etc.

Acas said these factors are more than a valid reason to appeal as even though I did wrong work should admit failure to carry out the disciplinary fairly by ignoring my serious health issues and as a company ignoring my medical needs while under their employment.

Watch this space. ....

[stevemLS]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Thanks for your help and advice.

I have been on the same meds for 3 years so I guess I can't say changes in my behaviour have been due to a change in dose or change of meds.

My employer was not aware I have been depressed or on any form of medication. The last time I had help at work was 3 years ago when I was recoving from alcoholism. I saw occupational health who monitored my health until I was fit for work.

Right there might be a mistake here. I was told verbally on Sunday the 2nd at 5pm I was suspended and would return to work on the 3rd at 1pm for an investigation hearing. No letter and less than 24 hrs notice. Have they made an error here? I was invited to take a rep and I did.

The HR manager took notes in the investigation and in the disciplinary. She did interject a few times on both occasions but her comments were not written down due to her being the note taker. Am I right in thinking the manager has to remain impartial? At one point I said I had a bad day and was stressed. She added if she has a bad day she wouldn't steal.

After the allegations were made it was then backed up by them showing me cctv.

My stealing was on more than one occasion. That's why I feel by stopping the alcohol I may have replaced it with theft.

I submitted my doctors note when I was told the allegations again and asked if there was anything I wanted to add. The letter states I have stage 1 liver disease with chronic cirrhosis. It also mentions I have been checked for cancer but I'm all clear. It speaks positively about me remaining sober but further health complications are inevitable in the future. It lists my medications too.

I really hope there is something that can save my outcome.

Is it really true they don't have to ask for my comment before they dismissed me? Had I wished to resign I had no chance too.

This is the original account of the hearing and it is this that I have been basing my view of the employers management of OP and of the hearing.

No emphasis on mental illness still less cause for behaviour, factual description, it seems to me.

No mention of a file of papers which it was intended to introduce but was somehow presented.

All emphasis on alleged procedural defects.

No indication of any evidence of ill health whatever since the treatment 3 years ago.

Appropriate actions by employer to facilitate return to work.