Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

[Acjb007]

I work for a supermarket and stole through self scan. As a result I was dismissed today. However I feel there are mitigating circumstances and there are a few areas where I think they haven't followed the correct disciplinary process. Before I go onto detail is this the right place to seek advice?

[Kati]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

[MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION]??

[stevemLS]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Yes, right place.

You should be aware, though, that stealing from your employer is perhaps one of the most difficult flavour of GM to mitigate and failure to follow process will only take you so far. Similarly, personal mitigation, IME, doesn't carry a great deal of weight.

Full details will be needed of circumstances, with no identifying information, before anyone will be able to offer any help.

[Acjb007]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Okay thanks. My mitigating circumstances are I have liver disease and chronic cirrhosis. I'm on medication Inc antidepressants. I am respected and known for my honesty. However I did take a few items while going through self scan. They had further cctv to back up their claims. I admitted I had stolen but felt due to my health and mental state I had acted irrationally and out of character. There is a load of info online to back this up. In the hearing they didn't even look at my letter from my doctor. They also ignored the papers I had brought with me regarding my medication. It wasn't until after I was dismissed they took a copy of my letter from my doctor. Also during the hearing it was interupted 3 times by 3 different colleagues walking in unannounced. I belive this is unfair on me. The first hearing was held by my manager and hr manager. They and mother and daughter in law. Is this allowed? During being shown the cctv a colleague sat in and watched. This made me very uncomfortable. When I asked her involvement I was snapped at and told she deals with discrepancies. She is not a manager or security colleague. Is this allowed? I expressed I had a drink problem but had been sober 3 yrs and worried I had replaced alcohol with stealing. This was dismissed. Addiction is an illness and do work have a duty of care regarding this? This can all be backed up by my GP. My major concern was when the hearing was adjourned so a decision could be made I had thought about resigning. I was told by my rep to think about it seriously and when we go back in I will be asked if there is anything I want to add before the decision is announced. When I re entered the room I was NOT given an opportunity to quit or give any feedback. They read out the reasons for me being there and then terminated my employment. I do know theft is wrong but this is my life and if I can salvage a part of my career then I need to appeal. Many thanks.

[stevemLS]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

OK.

The bad news is that addiction to alcohol and drugs is specifically excluded from the definition of disability so you don't enjoy the limited protections the Equality Act may have given you. See p11 onwards https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...definition.pdf for a discussion.

The slightly better news is that SOME of the possible consequences can be.

The interruptions to the hearing are bad form but don't invalidate them. The fact that the manager and HR manager are related is immaterial.

At what stage were you shown the CCTV?

I am worried by what you said about stealing replacing drinking, dpes that mean it is a habit.

At what stage did you submit the letter from your doctor? What did it say? What does your policy say about submission of evidence? (It is usual for it to be required in advance and then the panel have a discretion to admit late evidence).

I'm afraid that your major concern, that you had no opportunity to give feedback or resign after the panel had reached their decision, is of no weight.

To be totally honest with you, the only thing I can see here is whether they properly took into account medical evidence. Others may be along with further ideas, but as far as I can see, it is not hopeful. I'm very sorry not to be more positive.

[des8]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

OK.

The bad news is that addiction to alcohol and drugs is specifically excluded from the definition of disability so you don't enjoy the limited protections the Equality Act may have given you. See p11 onwards https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...definition.pdf for a discussion.

But that section says: "A12. Certain conditions are not to be regarded as impairments for thepurposes of the Act3. These are:• addiction to, or dependency on, alcohol, nicotine, or any othersubstance (other than in consequence of the substance being medically prescribed);"

Different anti depressants have different side effects but may include confusion, disorientation, agitation, psychosis (especially appropriate in this situation), suicidal thoughts, self harm.

Others will hopefully be able to advise you further

[stevemLS]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

But that section says: "A12. Certain conditions are not to be regarded as impairments for thepurposes of the Act3. These are:• addiction to, or dependency on, alcohol, nicotine, or any othersubstance (other than in consequence of the substance being medically prescribed);"

Different anti depressants have different side effects but may include confusion, disorientation, agitation, psychosis (especially appropriate in this situation), suicidal thoughts, self harm.

Others will hopefully be able to advise you further

I thought that is pretty much what I said, perhaps imperfectly, before trying to have a look at the facts.

[teaboy2]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

So far i agree with @stevemLS, it doesn't look like the OP has much to go on to be honest.

Whilst @des8 makes a valid point about the side effects of anti-depressants, the difficulty would be proving the OP's actions where due to such side effects, so unless the OP has only recently (i.e. last couple of weeks), been placed on anti-depressants, had his/her dosage increased (where it may induce side effects) or been changed on to different anti-depressants. Then theirs no point even looking down the route of arguing that the OP's actions were due to side effects of the anti-depressants - Plus we would need clinical proof that the OP was suffering side effects at the time!

All the employer needs to dismiss some one is reasonable belief, in this case it be reasonable belief that the OP was fully aware of his/her actions at the time, and they would argue that as you were still able to perform your job, then you were not in a diminished state of mind and therefore your actions were not down to diminished responsibility am afraid, even if you were acting completely out of character due to the effects of anti-depressants!

Though depression is a protected characteristic under the equality act 2010, and being depressed would not actually stop the OP performing their job, but it can lead to them acting out of character randomly and doing things they would never have thought of doing prior to suffering depression.

So my questions are:

Was the employer aware of your medical history/problems prior to the incident in question?

If so:

Did they carry out any work place assessment, regarding your medical problems? and/or make any reasonable adjustments i.e. such as change your duties to lighter or less stressful duties, or take preventive measures to avoid things that may trigger your depression i.e. not putting you on checkout duty facing customers!

Did they refer you to occupational health?

At the investigatory meeting and the disciplinary meeting, did they invite you to attend to them in writing with at least 48hrs notice and also inform you of your right to be accompanied by a colleague or union representative?

Regarding disciplinary procedure it self. If they failed to comply with their own disciplinary procedure then that is breach of contract and would make dismissal unfair, regardless as to the act of misconduct. The same applies if their disciplinary procedure doesn't adhere to the ACAS code of conduct: Disciplinary and Grievance Procedures (Copy found here - http://www.acas.org.uk/?articleid=2174) - Basically the ACAS code is the general rule of thumb for disciplinary procedures, if they do not follow that or if their own disciplinary is not inline with the ACAS code, then its very likely the disciplinary procedure was unfair. Also the person that carried out the investigation must not have known about the incident prior to being asked to investigate, or involved in the incident, including detaining you or catching you at it. As for the disciplinary meeting, again the people carrying it out, should not have been involved in the incident directly - This is so the investigation and the disciplinary that follows are both impartial.

So basically, answers mine and everyone else questions, in detail, as best you can. As where going to need specific details from you if we are going to have any hope of being able to help you, in some way or another. This doesn't mean you will get your job back, or mean you will have a claim to take this to tribunal, but some of us do have contacts with organisations that may be able to help you with your addiction and with your depression, and hopefully help you get back on your feet and find alternative employment!

Ohh and if you get any demands from retail loss prevention, you come straight back here and let us know as we can deal with them for you, well give you the letters you need to send back to them.

[Acjb007]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Thanks for your help and advice.

I have been on the same meds for 3 years so I guess I can't say changes in my behaviour have been due to a change in dose or change of meds.

My employer was not aware I have been depressed or on any form of medication. The last time I had help at work was 3 years ago when I was recoving from alcoholism. I saw occupational health who monitored my health until I was fit for work.

Right there might be a mistake here. I was told verbally on Sunday the 2nd at 5pm I was suspended and would return to work on the 3rd at 1pm for an investigation hearing. No letter and less than 24 hrs notice. Have they made an error here? I was invited to take a rep and I did.

The HR manager took notes in the investigation and in the disciplinary. She did interject a few times on both occasions but her comments were not written down due to her being the note taker. Am I right in thinking the manager has to remain impartial? At one point I said I had a bad day and was stressed. She added if she has a bad day she wouldn't steal.

After the allegations were made it was then backed up by them showing me cctv.

My stealing was on more than one occasion. That's why I feel by stopping the alcohol I may have replaced it with theft.

I submitted my doctors note when I was told the allegations again and asked if there was anything I wanted to add. The letter states I have stage 1 liver disease with chronic cirrhosis. It also mentions I have been checked for cancer but I'm all clear. It speaks positively about me remaining sober but further health complications are inevitable in the future. It lists my medications too.

I really hope there is something that can save my outcome.

Is it really true they don't have to ask for my comment before they dismissed me? Had I wished to resign I had no chance too.

[Acjb007]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

One other thing. I was told I was being suspended for suspected theft. I asked for more information and I was told none could be given. I had nothing to prepare for as theft could mean several things working in a supermarket. Theft of company time, taking breaks when I shouldn't. Theft of cash from a till. This crossed my mind as a manager I give out my log in info to new starters as personnel let them start their shift with nothing set up. I did bring this issue up to which they changed the subject very quickly. theft of goods off shopfloor, I took a pad and let a colleague use it as another manager promised it too her weeks ago. And finally shoplifting. Which is what I did.

Is it true by law as soon as I was told I would be attending a disciplinary hearing the following day my employer should have given me a booklet/letter for me to read on the companies terms and conditions of a disciplinary? I was not given anything until my notes arrived in the post the day after the hearing. I know I could probably find the information online but this was not offered to me either.

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

To be honest, theft from your employer is a very valid reason to get sacked on grounds of gross misconduct. As explained by Teaboy, your employer still needs to follow the disciplinary process etc.

If I was the employer, I would probably go to the police too. Consider yourself lucky if they aren't doing that and learn from your mistakes and expect to having to explain DWP officers why you lost your job!

[teaboy2]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Thanks for your help and advice.

I have been on the same meds for 3 years so I guess I can't say changes in my behaviour have been due to a change in dose or change of meds.

My employer was not aware I have been depressed or on any form of medication. The last time I had help at work was 3 years ago when I was recoving from alcoholism. I saw occupational health who monitored my health until I was fit for work.

Ok, them not being aware of your alcoholism may help given its closely linked to depression in a lot of cases, but then it may not as it is your responsibility to inform them etc. You should have also been given written notice that you were suspended too.

Right there might be a mistake here. I was told verbally on Sunday the 2nd at 5pm I was suspended and would return to work on the 3rd at 1pm for an investigation hearing. No letter and less than 24 hrs notice. Have they made an error here? I was invited to take a rep and I did.

They are suppose to suspend you, then write to you giving you no less than 48hrs notice along informing you of your right to be accompanied. Telling you verbally that your suspended and to be at work the next day for and investigatory meeting is not sufficient. The reason you should be invited to said hearing in writing is because the employer most set up the exact nature of what you are being investigate/disciplined for and what the potential consequences could be (Gurnett v ASOS.com Ltd) i.e. dismissal.

The HR manager took notes in the investigation and in the disciplinary. She did interject a few times on both occasions but her comments were not written down due to her being the note taker. Am I right in thinking the manager has to remain impartial? At one point I said I had a bad day and was stressed. She added if she has a bad day she wouldn't steal.

Everything said by everyone in the meeting should be included in the meeting minutes (notes) - And yes the chair has to be impartial, however i do not see how the HR managers comments would make the chair biased, granted the HR managers comments were derogatory and biased somewhat, and something that can be raised in appeal letter, though on its own its nothing to go on!

Did you get copies of the hearing meetings for both the investigatory meeting and the disciplinary meeting?

After the allegations were made it was then backed up by them showing me cctv.

Was the CCTV clear, was it clearly you on the CCTV or was it poor quality meaning the person committing the act was indistinguishable from the person stood next to them etc? Was the CCTV time and date stamped (digital display of time and date on bottom of the CCTV video)?

My stealing was on more than one occasion. That's why I feel by stopping the alcohol I may have replaced it with theft.

I submitted my doctors note when I was told the allegations again and asked if there was anything I wanted to add. The letter states I have stage 1 liver disease with chronic cirrhosis. It also mentions I have been checked for cancer but I'm all clear. It speaks positively about me remaining sober but further health complications are inevitable in the future. It lists my medications too.

I really hope there is something that can save my outcome.

Is it really true they don't have to ask for my comment before they dismissed me? Had I wished to resign I had no chance too.

You could have handed in your notice at any time during the disciplinary process, though they are not obliged to accept it.

Did you have two hearings one for investigation and then a separate one days later for disciplinary?

Can you also post up a copy of your companies disciplinary procedure?

Once you done that we can start on an appeal - Though whilst this won't change anything, we can highlight their failings your mitigating circumstances, as well as their duty of care towards you i.e. they new you were depressed therefore should have kept a closer eye on you and intervened when they suspected you were not acting as per your normal self, rather than wait for you to commit an act of gross misconduct. As i am assuming your behavior had changed significantly in the last few months? If so can any of your colleagues provide a witness statement to this effect? Also we can use the appeal to highlight any breaches of their own disciplinary procedure or that that is not inline with ACAS code of conduct. The end result is hopefully to try and persuade them they should have acted once they were aware you were not your normal self, given they knew about your depression - some here who haven't experienced depression or anxiety won't be aware of just how easily it can make you act out of character or come across as acting out of character when depression/anxiety is at its worse - I do though after battling anxiety on and off for ten years of my early adult life. So hopefully get you your job back and nothing worse than a final written warning though its more likely you will be offered a financial settlement, as i doubt the company will want to let you have your job back or for the company to end up at tribunal for unfair dismissal and breach of contract for not following its own disciplinary procedure.

One other thing. I was told I was being suspended for suspected theft. I asked for more information and I was told none could be given. I had nothing to prepare for as theft could mean several things working in a supermarket. Theft of company time, taking breaks when I shouldn't. Theft of cash from a till. This crossed my mind as a manager I give out my log in info to new starters as personnel let them start their shift with nothing set up. I did bring this issue up to which they changed the subject very quickly. theft of goods off shopfloor, I took a pad and let a colleague use it as another manager promised it too her weeks ago. And finally shoplifting. Which is what I did.

You should have been informed in writing as to the precise nature of what you were being investigated for, in this case, suspected theft of sell-able goods (or similar definition for said goods). This should have been put to you in a letter of suspension or at least in the letter inviting you to attend an investigatory meeting!

Was their any witness statements gathered by the employer?

Is it true by law as soon as I was told I would be attending a disciplinary hearing the following day my employer should have given me a booklet/letter for me to read on the companies terms and conditions of a disciplinary? I was not given anything until my notes arrived in the post the day after the hearing. I know I could probably find the information online but this was not offered to me either.

There's no law as such, but you should have been given a copy of the disciplinary procedure.

Before we go ahead with appeal, the chances of having any success of this turning in your favour (i.e. financial settlement offer for unfair dismissal) you should know this is going to be a uphill battle and will likely be even more stressful, so could have a serious knock-on effect in regards to your depression and physical health. And there is also no promises you will actually succeed with this. Personally i would walk away, even though the way they handled the disciplinary procedure does appear to have been unfair. But obviously the decision is yours to make, and either way we will help and support you as best we can!

- - - Updated - - -

To be honest, theft from your employer is a very valid reason to get sacked on grounds of gross misconduct. As explained by Teaboy, your employer still needs to follow the disciplinary process etc.

If I was the employer, I would probably go to the police too. Consider yourself lucky if they aren't doing that and learn from your mistakes and expect to having to explain DWP officers why you lost your job!

He is very lucky the police weren't involved, but then given the mitigating circumstances, he would be classed as vulnerable person, so its likely the police wouldn't have not taken it any further than issue a warning.

[stevemLS]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

I admire you [MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] (and wish I knew how to quote and comment like that) for attempting to take on what I am afraid I see as a lost cause.

In a nutshell, you have an employee who the employer has no indication is suffering a health problem (with no indication from him/her that there was any noticiable change in behaviour that should of triggered any warning signals) who has admitted stealing from their employer on multiple occasions.

As you say, it is their decision to take whether to appeal or not, I simply cannot see that reinstatement is a possibility nor can I see any Tribunal making a finding that the employer has acted unreasonably which kind of makes any departure from the ACAS code irrelevant, if there is no award there can't be an uplift.

I can't help but feel that this will be a whole load of stress for OP that they just don't need at this time.

[Acjb007]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

Thank you! So as I wasn't given a letter stating I was suspended and the reason why and also not given 48hrs to prepare for the initial meeting does this mean they have broken the disciplinary process making the whole thing void? When I left work after being verbally suspended I was very confused as to what the allegations could be. Theft is unclear as for all I knew the claim could have been wrong. For instance a colleague used my log in details and committed theft. Is 20 hours verbal notice enough? I have searched and searched online for the disciplinary action the supermarket follow with no luck. Basically I entered the meeting unaware of the rules, how the meeting would go. I was NOT given a specific room to meet in. Simply told to be at work at 1pm.

The cctv was clear and I can't deny I skipped scanned products. However you CANNOT see the items I took. The duty manager said it's clear you are bypassing scanning the product but what items are you taking. I replied honestly with 'I can't remember'.

There was a witness statement with the colleagues name on it. His address was crossed out. You'd think he'd want to remain anonymous due to him now being considered a grass. Colleagues really liked me and said he could have told me he saw what I was doing and warn me to stop and pay for my goods. That way I'd have chickened out and not committed the offence and of course kept my job. Shall I mention I know it was him and have no hard feelings to see if he acts surprised I know? If he wished to remain anonymous and hasn't been does that damage the case?

The first letter I was sent from my employer was given to me by hand at the disciplinary meeting. It contained info on the companies disciplinary process and a letter of suspension. I had no time to read it and in fact didn't open it until the end of the meeting.

Notes were taken and sent to me which arrived the following day.

The police would only be able to go on my admission and evidence but I could say I took cheap items of no value. From experience the police class shoplifting as a low priority often turning up 4 hours after they have been called. The shoplifter then normally pays for the goods and is banned. Not worth the paperwork I believe.

If all above is 100% accurate and clear I can prepare to appeal the disciplinary on the grounds.

1. No written warning was given regarding my suspension.
2. No written letter regarding the accusation in detail so I could prepare case.
3. No information given before the meeting to inform me of the companies disciplinary process and that I maybe dismissed.
4. Only 20 hours notice given verbally of the meeting which I felt was not enough time to prepare myself. Also back to point 1, 2 and 3 I did not know it could lead to dismissal. How the meeting would run. Fear my rep may not be able to attend at such short notice. And I cannot prepare a case when I have no knowledge of the full reason I was suspended apart from the term used as theft. When I asked for more information it was I was denied it point blankly.
5. The 3 interuptions to the meeting made me lose track of thought in an already very stressful situation.
6. My medical notes and mitigating circumstances were completely ignored.
7. I was accused of being aware of my actions due to me scanning normally when colleagues were near me. When I challenged this saying a colleague was near me in the original footage by my side talking to me and I still skipped scanning. The cctv was not viewed again and my comments were dismissed.
8. Not all the notes were taken when the HR manager interject as she was the note taker.
9. My line manager didn't remain impartial and involved herself as if she was in my position. I felt this unfair as clearly her circumstances are very different from mine.

3 years ago work did know I was depressed and I was told I'd be monitored daily to check on my health after hospital and wellbeing. Typically after that conversation I was never ever asked how I was or any follow up meeting was held. More recently I kept my depression a secret as I don't want it to define me as a person. Work could simply say they had no idea I was depressed and as I'd not had a day off sick in 3 yrs my health must be fine. They were aware of follow up hospital appointments as I had to book time off. At the end of the disciplinary the HR manager said I did know about your alcohol problem and health issues as she had been told ages ago and had forgotten about it. I asked if it was the HR manager before who told her and she replied no. My rep said there maybe a case for colleague confidentially being broken.

Over the past 3 years I my follow up hospital visits have included intrusive endoscopys, around 5 times I've had this procedure in those 3 years. Intense counselling where I've been an emotional wreck due to having to face my demons. Various blood tests and scans for tumors and cirrhosis monitoring. I found out a year ago after a scan my liver scan had topped her chart for damage hitting a score of 75kpa out of a depressing 75kpa. I was told within the next few years I will go downhill and should prepare myself to be put in the transplant list. This of course shook me to the core and with no family support or help from my councilor I had to deal with all this alone. I worried if I told work they would think I was weak and take away my promotion.

So there we go. I'm willing to go through a battle and have done so before with my complicated life. I'm hoping that the best I can get is work to admit they have not given me a fair disciplinary and will either pay me off or as a minimum supply me with a good reference leaving out any mentioned of why I left.

Is the note taker allowed to be the same person in both meetings? If I put up my works disciplinary actions then I will be naming the company. Is this allowed?

Thanks again!

[MIKE770]

Re: Got dismissed today. Advice please. .

not much of a leg to stand on in reality? deeds done!