Unversity Fees Payback

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Hi Everyone

Apologies for not replying to some earlier posts my email decided to send all the notifications into SPAM for some odd reason.

In regards the fee's payback it was never in my official employment contract it was always a separate letter that simply stated the following;


Reimbursement of training fees by the Student to the Company:
The company reserves the right to recover from you some or all costs incurred by the company if your contract is terminated for the following reasons:
You have given notice to cease employment
Morrisons has terminated your contract of employment (other than by redundancy)
Morrisons has terminated this training contract for failing to meet certain requirements.

Costs will be recovered on the following basis:

Date of termination	Fee Recovery
Within 24 months of date of payment	100% of costs
Within 36 months of date of payment	66% of costs
Within 48 months of date of payment	33% of costs

Fees recovered will include all of the sponsorship costs associated with the full course of studies undertaken.


This was given to me when I started working in October 2011. Since then nothing else has been given to me about fee's and I have since signed a new employment contract that did not contain another one of these letters.

I have asked on a number of occasions for the fee's amounts but they have never responded to my request and I know out of the 10 of us on the scheme 5 have been told different amounts each one different and no where near each other.

My physical contract's of employment mention nothing about fees.

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Somewhat belatedly I am afraid I disagree with teaboy, the consideration is plainly there, they paid for you to take the course, in reeturn you got to take the course.

I would be content tht the other necessary elements of a contract are present to.

But there was never a consideration for the fee's they were changing.

And for the first 3 years of my employment whilst at University no one would disclose the fee's to any of us.

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

If you can't post it up, you could always email them to me and I'll do it kati@legalbeagles.info

Would it be worth seeing both contracts do you think? That way we could compare them

Hi Kati I have emailed you the details.

Thanks
ZJC

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

I have asked on a number of occasions for the fee's amounts but they have never responded to my request and I know out of the 10 of us on the scheme 5 have been told different amounts each one different and no where near each other.

My physical contract's of employment mention nothing about fees.

- - - Updated - - -



But there was never a consideration for the fee's they were changing.

And for the first 3 years of my employment whilst at University no one would disclose the fee's to any of us.

Yes, there was so far as the law is concerned, their consideration was payment of the fees, your benefit/consideration was attending the course.

Are you able to evidence your requests for the amount of the fees?

[Kati]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Hi Kati I have emailed you the details.

Thanks
ZJC

This?:

Reimbursement of training fees by the Student to the Company: The company reserves the right to recover from you some or all costs incurred by the company if your contract is terminated for the following reasons:
You have given notice to cease employment
Morrisons has terminated your contract of employment (other than by redundancy)
Morrisons has terminated this training contract for failing to meet certain requirements.

Costs will be recovered on the following basis:

Date of termination	Fee Recovery
Within 24 months of date of payment	100% of costs
Within 36 months of date of payment	66% of costs
Within 48 months of date of payment	33% of costs

Fees recovered will include all of the sponsorship costs associated with the full course of studies undertaken.

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

This?:

That's the one yeah that's all I've ever received and it wasn't in my contract it was a separate document given to me after my contract.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, there was so far as the law is concerned, their consideration was payment of the fees, your benefit/consideration was attending the course.

Are you able to evidence your requests for the amount of the fees?

Hi I have email chains but some of the requests were verbals.

Thanks

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

That's the one yeah that's all I've ever received and it wasn't in my contract it was a separate document given to me after my contract.

- - - Updated - - -



Hi I have email chains but some of the requests were verbals.

Thanks

So, as I said back in post 4, was a side agreement, so fact not mentioned in contract no1 or 2 doesn't matter.

Would you be able to post redacted copies of the email chains, if you can't redact them send them to [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION] and I am sure she will be kind enough to work her magic.

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Yes, there was so far as the law is concerned, their consideration was payment of the fees, your benefit/consideration was attending the course.

Are you able to evidence your requests for the amount of the fees?

So, as I said back in post 4, was a side agreement, so fact not mentioned in contract no1 or 2 doesn't matter.

Would you be able to post redacted copies of the email chains, if you can't redact them send them to [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION] and I am sure she will be kind enough to work her magic.

The only email chain I have is from September 2014 and is an email to a HR representive asking for confirmation of the amount of fees that are liable to the company.

There was never a reply to this email.

The other discussion regarding fees was held verbally today with my manager but he couldn't confirm any fee amounts either nor any more information on the payback just wanted me to verbally agree I will pay them back. I said that I contested the agreement and the conversation ended with him speaking to a HR Representive.

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

OK, the precise words you said in September last year might help.

Today's conversation is not important.

Possibly stupid question but did you not think to ask when you entered into the agreement?

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

OK, the precise words you said in September last year might help.

Today's conversation is not important.

Possibly stupid question but did you not think to ask when you entered into the agreement?

Hi, XXX

Please can you confirm in writing the total amount of fee's that are repayable for our University studies and the breakdown of the payments required as per the pay back schedule.

Please can you also define the meaning of "Date of Payment" as the payback schedule references Date of Payment as the date in which fees are payable back from.

Thanks
XXX

Yes I did ask when I entered into the agreement in October 2011 and told these would be provided to me when I received my employment contract back from the company. This was never provided and when I chased verbally I was told that it was a 3 year payback period from the date we started on the course which would be October 2011.

This is my main argument as they are trying to state to me that all fee's are due however A) Ive never been told an amount B) Ive never been informed of what the Date of Payment is.

I don't want to be paying back thousands of pounds for an amount they could of pulled out of thin air and from a date again they have pulled out of thin air and it seems they don't want to provide this information.

Can they withhold my last wage as payment? I have never given them any written permission to do so?

Thanks

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

[QUOTE][Can they withhold my last wage as payment? I have never given them any written permission to do so?/QUOTE]

My view is not if that is the totality of the training agreement - many do include a recovery from wages clause which would render recovery lawful but as yours does not it would fail to satisfy the requirements of s13(1)(b) of the Employment Rights Act 1996.

Guess now you will just have to wait and see what their next move is. Don't agree to anything before you go.

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

[QUOTE=stevemLS;555390]

[Can they withhold my last wage as payment? I have never given them any written permission to do so?/QUOTE]

My view is not if that is the totality of the training agreement - many do include a recovery from wages clause which would render recovery lawful but as yours does not it would fail to satisfy the requirements of s13(1)(b) of the Employment Rights Act 1996.

Guess now you will just have to wait and see what their next move is. Don't agree to anything before you go.

Thanks for coming back, there is no mention of any ability to deduct payment from the wage in the agreement.

I would imagine this will be brought up again tomorrow so I will update this thread accordingly with developments.

I will ensure I don't agree to anything and will leave on Friday it this as an open dispute

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Does anyone know where I stand if they cannot produce a signed copy of the agreement?

I asked for one today but I was given an unsigned version that had no reference to myself on which I handed back saying it wasn't signed.

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

They would just need to show on the balance of probabilities that you had agreed, which doesn't necessarily require a signed copy - the fact that you did the course for 3 years in the knowledge that you had to repay will be used by them - your September email will be evidence that you knew you had entered into repayment obligations.

(And, please don't take this the wrong way, don't exaggerate what you have done to work out what you might owe, even on this thread you referred to plural email chains and said some of the other requests were verbal, when asked about evidence, it turns out to be one email and one verbal request, today, in response to their raising it - if you do that during any dispute your credibility will be shredded.)

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

They would just need to show on the balance of probabilities that you had agreed, which doesn't necessarily require a signed copy - the fact that you did the course for 3 years in the knowledge that you had to repay will be used by them - your September email will be evidence that you knew you had entered into repayment obligations.

(And, please don't take this the wrong way, don't exaggerate what you have done to work out what you might owe, even on this thread you referred to plural email chains and said some of the other requests were verbal, when asked about evidence, it turns out to be one email and one verbal request, today, in response to their raising it - if you do that during any dispute your credibility will be shredded.)

I have made several verbal requests in the past and more than one email. Unfortunately the email system deleted emails more than a year old so I lost all my other chains of emails so have no proof on that matter.

As I keep saying my main argument is with them trying to force me into paying fees that I could never consider which could leave me in an financial detriment. I don't think many people have X thousand pounds lying around and as far as I'm aware I was nearing the end of my repayment terms now anyway as per my understanding of the agreement posted above.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Yes, there was so far as the law is concerned, their consideration was payment of the fees, your benefit/consideration was attending the course.

Are you able to evidence your requests for the amount of the fees?

I disagree. In order for the terms to be valid and enforceable the amounts or an accurate estimate of maximum amount that would need to be paid along with a break down of fees would need to be included in the terms. You can not give contractual consideration to fees or repaying fees if you do not know what the financial value of those fees are!!

For example if, as per you say above, "consideration is given to payment of the fees" - then a contract for a phone would only need to state "You agree to pay a monthly fee in return for us providing you a mobile phone service and handset" without stating any actual monetarily value to the monthly fee. Which would mean the the phone company could charge you anywhere from 0 to an infinite amount!

Sorry but if the monetarily value as an accurate estimate and break down of cost is not provided as part of the training agreement then the agreement is null and void and unenforceable, as you can not give consideration to the monetarily value of the fees as it was not included - And it would be irrelevant as to if the OP took part in or completed the course or not!