Unversity Fees Payback

[MissFM]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

To add to this although not in my contract my wage was subsidised heavily during my first 3 years when compared to the average salary for the job I was doing not sure if this adds anything to the debate.

Subsidised by whom? Do you mean that they were paying you more than most or that they received some sort of subsidy to pay you?

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Besides they didn't mention fee amount or estimated maximum that would be payable - So the terms unenforceable anyway, as there was nothing there for you to take into consideration. Therefore it fails on the principle of contractual consideration as you can not give consideration to the terms if you don't know what the estimated maximum fee repayable is!

Teaboy! Apologies for my delay in replying but thank you very much for the information you have provided!

If it comes to it and I need to bring up the fact of contractual consideration what's the best route to go down? Would I need to get the involved of ACAS or similar to help fight my side of the case?

Want to make sure I'm prepared. Having spoke with other people it seems they are giving different amounts to different people which straight away sets alarm bells ringing as everyone sat the same course and the same time and no one was any different.

Thanks

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Subsidised by whom? Do you mean that they were paying you more than most or that they received some sort of subsidy to pay you?

Sorry what I meant was whilst studying at Univeristy the salary paid to me was "capped" at a much lower rate than the standard pay for the jobs. I can only assume this was a way of them compensating for paying for the university fees but it was never a written agreement.

[teaboy2]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Teaboy! Apologies for my delay in replying but thank you very much for the information you have provided!

If it comes to it and I need to bring up the fact of contractual consideration what's the best route to go down? Would I need to get the involved of ACAS or similar to help fight my side of the case?

Want to make sure I'm prepared. Having spoke with other people it seems they are giving different amounts to different people which straight away sets alarm bells ringing as everyone sat the same course and the same time and no one was any different.

Thanks

Simply stand your ground, refuse to pay and state what i said about not being able to give consideration to the terms as no estimated break down as to the costs of fees were included and therefore the terms are unfair and invalid, as you can not possibly give consideration as to the costs when they were never provided the costs as part of the terms. Remind them if they deduct any fee from your final pay it would be not only a breach of contract on their part, but they would also be in breach of section 13 of the employment rights at 1996.

If they do deduct money from your pay you can then consider taking court action, for breach of contact, via the small claims court (or via tribunal claim for unlawful deduction of wages). They will probably counter claim for the fees, but your defense will be their terms were unfair and invalid as no consideration could be given to the terms as their was no break down as to the actual cost of the fees. So even if the employer produced evidence of the fees, they wouldn't be able to enforce the terms - But small claims court would be the best place for arguing Contractual consideration.

If they do not deduct from your wages, then they may take you to small claims themselves, but that's very unlikely as they'd be foolish too do so if relying on just those terms alone as they appear in your contract.

If i said i could get you a pink ferrari and the written contract terms where (sales of good act etc aside) "i was to get you a pink Ferrari and on delivery payment is to be made by you to me", without including a sum as to the value of said payment. I could just turn up with the pink Ferrari and charge you twice as much as it was worth and say you'd have to pay as you signed an agreement stating you would once i delivered it to you. But legally you wouldn't have to pay me as the contract fails to meet contractual principle of consideration. They have basically done the same, only it uni fees and not a pink Ferrari!!

[Amethyst]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

The university fees would have been lower than the standard individual uni fees as well as this is a mass contract for a 'graduate scheme'. So there's that to bear in mind with the amounts stated. See what they come up with first and go from there. If others have had a similar issue with this contract then the employer may have a bigger problem on its hands.

Are all their new contracts based on date of completion and presumably there would need to be a caveat for if the course is not completed yr 1/2/3 etc ??

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Simply stand your ground, refuse to pay and state what i said about not being able to give consideration to the terms as no estimated break down as to the costs of fees were included and therefore the terms are unfair and invalid, as you can not possibly give consideration as to the costs when they were never provided the costs as part of the terms. Remind them if they deduct any fee from your final pay it would be not only a breach of contract on their part, but they would also be in breach of section 13 of the employment rights at 1996.

If they do deduct money from your pay you can then consider taking court action, for breach of contact, via the small claims court (or via tribunal claim for unlawful deduction of wages). They will probably counter claim for the fees, but your defense will be their terms were unfair and invalid as no consideration could be given to the terms as their was no break down as to the actual cost of the fees. So even if the employer produced evidence of the fees, they wouldn't be able to enforce the terms - But small claims court would be the best place for arguing Contractual consideration.

If they do not deduct from your wages, then they may take you to small claims themselves, but that's very unlikely as they'd be foolish too do so if relying on just those terms alone as they appear in your contract.

If i said i could get you a pink ferrari and the written contract terms where (sales of good act etc aside) "i was to get you a pink Ferrari and on delivery payment is to be made by you to me", without including a sum as to the value of said payment. I could just turn up with the pink Ferrari and charge you twice as much as it was worth and say you'd have to pay as you signed an agreement stating you would once i delivered it to you. But legally you wouldn't have to pay me as the contract fails to meet contractual principle of consideration. They have basically done the same, only it uni fees and not a pink Ferrari!!

Thanks very much for the advise again TeaBoy! I will use this to stand my ground. At present nothing's been mentioned but I am expecting it to arise at many moment.

Your advise and everyone else has been great and ill be sure to keep the thread up-to-date with developments.

- - - Updated - - -

The university fees would have been lower than the standard individual uni fees as well as this is a mass contract for a 'graduate scheme'. So there's that to bear in mind with the amounts stated. See what they come up with first and go from there. If others have had a similar issue with this contract then the employer may have a bigger problem on its hands.

Are all their new contracts based on date of completion and presumably there would need to be a caveat for if the course is not completed yr 1/2/3 etc ??

Hi

Yeah your right fee's would of been less as its safe to assume they got a discount for sending 28 of us on the course.

Ive asked a few people who have asked for amounts and so far 3 people have been told 3 different amounts for the fee's varying from Ł8000 to a staggering Ł17,000 which raises alarm bells as it seems they don't really know the true figure.

The new contracts for the course that started above mine and based on date of completion of the course and contains the same 66%, 33% payback periods but again have no mention at all about the fee amounts.

[Amethyst]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

I wonder if it may be worth starting a thread over on the Student Rooms http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forum.php - there are a few discussions about Morrisons and other graduate schemes - I can't see anything about the tie-in period or repayment of course fees - I don't know if that's because it is primarily about applying for the grad schemes, but I think it is an important point when considering career choices how long you will be tied in for.

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

I wonder if it may be worth starting a thread over on the Student Rooms http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forum.php - there are a few discussions about Morrisons and other graduate schemes - I can't see anything about the tie-in period or repayment of course fees - I don't know if that's because it is primarily about applying for the grad schemes, but I think it is an important point when considering career choices how long you will be tied in for.

I'll drop something in there. I remember when I was offered the job I sat down with the head of the scheme and asked about time we would be tied to the company and at the time they said 4 years from starting which would mean I'm just about up to the 4 years.

Hence forth why I signed the contract as I assumed that the payback period would be from when I started work.

It seems however as this was a verbal conversation it was never applied and they like to change the rules.

I wish I could have stayed in my role but sadly times are tough and I haven't had the best of experiences. The scheme was not what it was made out to be and due to on-going restructuring the career prospects for future have vanished. I cArnt sit around for another X years waiting and hoping So I believe the time is right to make a move.

[matt3942]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Hi [MENTION=67487]Zjc[/MENTION]

Is it possible to see the new contract in its entirety? I'm not sure how you send documents on here but if you are able to, don't forget to redact the contract before you send.

- Matt

[wales01man]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

I have no idea of the legal aspect of this but I would expect a company as large as Morrisons would have everything in writing if this can all be posted by the OP those on here can offer a better opinion its seems all a bit vague at the moment

[Kati]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

If you can't post it up, you could always email them to me and I'll do it kati@legalbeagles.info

Would it be worth seeing both contracts do you think? That way we could compare them

[matt3942]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

It certainly can't hurt [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION]

[MissFM]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Sorry what I meant was whilst studying at Univeristy the salary paid to me was "capped" at a much lower rate than the standard pay for the jobs. I can only assume this was a way of them compensating for paying for the university fees but it was never a written agreement.

Hmmm.

Others here are giving the customary excellent legal advice but just a couple of thoughts in case it's at all useful.

If they have indeed paid you less than others doing the same job since you've worked there for the last 3 1/2 years it does seem likely that they've had their pound of flesh.

I also spotted the below on their website, which in the light of your posts seems slightly at variance with their actual demands for people on their sponsored scheme:

http://ldd.tbe.taleo.net/ldd01/ats/c...ws=43&rid=1870

What we need from you

To join the scheme you must be at least 18 and fresh out of school or ideally will have some work experience...probably up to or around two years' worth, and perhaps related to manufacturing, retail, business or management. You must be able to commit to at least three years working and learning with us and hopefully long beyond, plus five days a week on shifts and attending University once every six weeks. You won't, of course, have a degree yet but should have 260 UCAS points or equivalent and at least C grades including GCSE Maths and English. Most importantly, you must live within sensible commuting distance of one of our Manufacturing sites.

It'll be interesting to see the contract(s).

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Hi everyone[/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Been quiet for a while and now two days to go before my last day the subject of payback has been brought up. Apparently they "forgot" to ask me sooner. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]They said I need to payback, when I asked for amounts they didn't have them and were "finding them out" [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)][/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]We ended the conversation with me saying I contested the contract.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]What's the next steps from your eyes? Do I need to bring up contractual consideration or do I need to pull a formal letter together to hand over to them? [/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]
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[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Thanks [/COLOR]

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Somewhat belatedly I am afraid I disagree with teaboy, the consideration is plainly there, they paid for you to take the course, in reeturn you got to take the course.

I would be content tht the other necessary elements of a contract are present to.