Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Thanks [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION]

Any thoughts on how I should approach my disciplinary meeting? As per [MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] advice, I will prepare some wording to defend myself - that it was a personal opinion, I was also going to state that I've been stressed/worried by my pregnancy (which isn't untrue) as well as unwell.

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No, nothing at all on my record no warnings etc.

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

I've just been told my boss is going to be present in my disciplinary hearing, is that allowed?

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

No its not, as hes the one the comments referred to and his presence would make the meeting biased when it must be impartial.

Have you received a letter inviting you to the investigatory meeting? If so please post it up word for word!

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

I haven't been invited to investigatory meeting, only the disciplinary. I just wondered if he's allowed to the disciplinary meeting?

Letter pasted below:

Following your recent suspension from work and my e-mail to you yesterday, I am writing to request that you attend a formal disciplinary meeting in Meeting Room 1 on Friday 29th May at 10 a.m.

The purpose of this meeting will be to consider whether formal disciplinary action should be taken against you for gross misconduct in respect of the following allegations:

1. That you have worked on your own personal web page using the Company’s systems in work time.

2. That you have misused the Company’s e-mail system in work time.

3. That you have used the Company’s e-mail system to make defamatory and highly offensive remarks about your manager and other employees.

4. That you have sought to undermine your manager and other employees within the business.

5. That your actions against an employee (Miss Glenn) amounted effectively to bullying in breach of the Company’s Harassment and Bullying Policy.

6. That your conduct shows a deep disrespect for your manager and other employees with your actions being prejudicial to the maintenance of a good working environment.

7. That you have failed in your obligation to act in good faith towards the Company and to promote and serve its best interests.


Copies of e-mail correspondence that will be referred to in the disciplinary meeting were couriered to you yesterday.

The meeting will be chaired by me in accordance with the Company’s Disciplinary Procedures copy of which is attached for your information and Sean Molyneaux (the Company’s HR Manager will be in attendance). Under the Procedure, you have the right to be accompanied by a work colleague or employee representative and I understand that Jo Phillips has agreed to act as your companion.

Depending on the facts established, the outcome of this meeting could result in disciplinary action being taken against you up to and including dismissal. If you are found guilty of gross misconduct, you may be dismissed without notice or pay in lieu of notice; however, a decision will not be taken until you have had an opportunity to put forward your version of events, any mitigating circumstances and the meeting has been concluded.

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

SO:

1. I have not worked on my blog other than during a lunchbreak (I wasn't even aware that was an issue until just now).

2. Ok

3. defamatory and highly offensive remarks - I'm not sure i agree they are either of those things.

4. Not sure how I have undermined him, but perhaps I have?

5. I don't know what they're referring to? I commented saying she's irritating, quiet, a bit squeaky and have commented generally about her messy working style.

6. Not sure it is deep disrespect.

7. Not sure I've failed as I have continued to do my work.

Feeling really worried for the worst now.

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

SO:

1. I have not worked on my blog other than during a lunchbreak (I wasn't even aware that was an issue until just now).

2. Ok

3. defamatory and highly offensive remarks - I'm not sure i agree they are either of those things.

4. Not sure how I have undermined him, but perhaps I have?

5. I don't know what they're referring to? I commented saying she's irritating, quiet, a bit squeaky and have commented generally about her messy working style.

6. Not sure it is deep disrespect.

7. Not sure I've failed as I have continued to do my work.

Feeling really worried for the worst now.

Ok really need you to post copies of the Emails if you can to see exactly what was written in those emails by you.

I can't see how using your work computer in your unpaid lunch break is misuse of company computers - How long had you been doing that for and did they know you were doing it and had they ever brought it up as an issue previously or asked you not too?

I take it the person chairing the meeting is the boss you made the comments in the email about?

As for point number 5 - Did you make these comments directly to miss glenn or in a private conversation (verbal or written/email) to 3rd party? If to a thrid party and not directly to Miss glenn, then that is not bullying and harassment as you have not sort to be confrontational directly with her or course her distress by directly making such comments to her. For it to be bullying and harassment you would have to have made the comments directly to Miss Glenn - Plus the comments you say you made are yet again nothing more than your own personal opinion of her!

Point 7 is complete nonsense as you have not failed to act in good faith towards the company as you have not made any allegations about the company or failed/refused to complete tasks and duties asked of you and same for any reasonable requests ask off you.

Can not really answer the others without knowing exactly what you yourself stated in the emails - Hence the need to see them.

I feel the manager is clearly nit picking and trying to find a way to get rid of you. However holding the meeting himself would make the disciplinary procedure biased and there unfair. So any dismissal would be unfair dismissal!

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Ok really need you to post copies of the Emails if you can to see exactly what was written in those emails by you.

There's a lot - not sure how I can do it.

I can't see how using your work computer in your unpaid lunch break is misuse of company computers - How long had you been doing that for and did they know you were doing it and had they ever brought it up as an issue previously or asked you not too?

Never mentioned, and I must have only done it a couple of times.

I take it the person chairing the meeting is the boss you made the comments in the email about?

Yes. Should I request he doesn't attend, or leave it as that could be used against them if need be.

As for point number 5 - Did you make these comments directly to miss glenn or in a private conversation (verbal or written/email) to 3rd party? If to a thrid party and not directly to Miss glenn, then that is not bullying and harassment as you have not sort to be confrontational directly with her or course her distress by directly making such comments to her. For it to be bullying and harassment you would have to have made the comments directly to Miss Glenn - Plus the comments you say you made are yet again nothing more than your own personal opinion of her!

There were a handful of comments made in emails to the same colleague as all the other emails. NEVER said to her, and as far as I'm aware she hasn't raised a complaint.

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

I haven't been invited to investigatory meeting, only the disciplinary. I just wondered if he's allowed to the disciplinary meeting?

Letter pasted below:

Following your recent suspension from work and my e-mail to you yesterday, I am writing to request that you attend a formal disciplinary meeting in Meeting Room 1 on Friday 29th May at 10 a.m.

The purpose of this meeting will be to consider whether formal disciplinary action should be taken against you for gross misconduct in respect of the following allegations:

1. That you have worked on your own personal web page using the Company’s systems in work time.

Please provide evidence as to usage of the company computers for personal use outside of my unpaid lunch break amounts to misuse of computers - I refer you to the company IT Policy Subsection General Principle:

• General Principles

A computer and internet access is provided to you to support the Company’s activities.

Private use of computers and the internet is permitted, subject to the restrictions contained in this policy. Any private use of the internet is expected to be in the employee's own time and is not to interfere with the person's job responsibilities. Personal use of the internet must not disrupt our IT systems or harm the Company's reputation.

You should exercise caution in any use of the internet and should never rely on information received or downloaded without appropriate confirmation of the source.

The part highlighted in Bold clearly states personal use of the computers is permitted - You used the computer on a couple of occasions to work on your own private vblog during your unpaid lunch break (therefore outside of working time). Your usage in such circumstances did not amount to inappropriate usage and therefore did not breach IT Policy!

2. That you have misused the Company’s e-mail system in work time.

Private use of email systems is permitted expressing an personal opinion privately to a colleague is not a misuse of the email system. Please provide evidence as to how the expressing of a personal opinion one has of Person A to Person B, amounts to misuse of email systems!

3. That you have used the Company’s e-mail system to make defamatory and highly offensive remarks about your manager and other employees.

Please provide evidence as to how expressing a Personal Opinion of Person A (Manager) to Person B (3rd party/colleague) privately in a private email conversation amounts to Defamation? It doesn't as your opinion was not made publically but privately, therefore you never sought to cause any embarrassment to person A - Also please provide evidence as to how ones expressng of their opinion of another in private conversation in writing or verbally amounts to a false statement of fact (i.e defamation), when it is merely your own personal opinion of a person that you are expressing and that you are entitled to express under your freedom of speech and expression rights?

4. That you have sought to undermine your manager and other employees within the business.

Please provide evidence as to how the expressing of your opinion of Person A to Person B in a private conversation written or verbally, amounts to undermining your authority? When Undermining your Authority in employment terms would require the spreading of malicious gossips (false statements of Fact which an expression of opinion does not amount to), refusal to carry out reasonable requests, be confrontational etc. I have completed all tasks and duties requested of myself by you and have never complained or answered back.

5. That your actions against an employee (Miss Glenn) amounted effectively to bullying in breach of the Company’s Harassment and Bullying Policy.

Please provide evidence of said bullying and harassment - Bearing in mind that my comments about Miss Glenn were again nothing but my personal opinion and where made in a private conversation. Therefore you never sought to be confrontation with Miss Glenn, you never sought to embarass her or course her distress. For this to amount to bullying and harassment your actions would have needed to have been directed at Miss Glenn in person with the intent to cause her distress and embarassment, not only that such actions would need to be sustained and continous other a period of time to amount to any form of bullying and harassment - Stating my opinion of her in one of comments to a 3rd party does not amount to Bullying and Harassment in any shape or form. Also the fact Miss Glenn herself has not personally raised this or made any grievance to the effect that she felt bullied or harassed by me is actually nothing but evidence that you yourself have raised this now purely because i had expressed my personal opinion of you in an private email conversation. The fact is all you said about Miss Glenn is that you thought she was "she's irritating, quiet, a bit squeaky" and also commented generally about her messy working style. That is not the kind of acts that would amount to anything like bullying and harassment - They are nothing more than your personal opinion and caused no distress to miss Glenn whatsoever as they were not made directly to her not were they made publicly and nor did you continously make such comments on a regurlar basis over sustained period of time

6. That your conduct shows a deep disrespect for your manager and other employees with your actions being prejudicial to the maintenance of a good working environment.

Please provide evidence as to how having a personal opinion of someone and expressing it to a third party in a private email conversation that Person A (manager whom you expressed your opinion about) was never meant to see, amounts to disrespect and being prejudicial to the maintenance of a good working environment. - It does not! Insubordination and refusal to carry out reasonable requests in confortation with the Manager or the deliberate spreading of malicious gossip (false statements of fact) in full view of everybody would be direspectful to the manager and prejudicial to the maintenance of a good working environment. But as said above the expressing of your personal opinion of Person A to Person B privately via email or in private verbal conversation does not amount to undermining authority and therefore does not amount to disrespect - if it did then the manager should be facing disciplinary for gross misconduct for all the times hes told someone their are an "Idiot" or told a 3rd party that he things some one is an "Idiot".

7. That you have failed in your obligation to act in good faith towards the Company and to promote and serve its best interests.

Please provide evidence as to how expressing your honest opinion about someone in a private conversation, is in breach of your obligation to act in good faith towards the company and to promote and serve its best interests, when at all times you have acted in good faith by fulfilling all your duties and any reasonable requests made of you, and have not made any public comment or sought to cause any public embarassment or distress to anyone. The private email conversation was not meant to be seen by those who you expressed your opinion about and therefore you had not sought to cause any embarrassment or distress to anyone who you had expressed your opinion about.

Given the above all of the above you have not committed any misconduct whatsoever! An expression of an opinion is not misconduct and certainly not gross misconduct!


Copies of e-mail correspondence that will be referred to in the disciplinary meeting were couriered to you yesterday.

The meeting will be chaired by me in accordance with the Company’s Disciplinary Procedures copy of which is attached for your information and Sean Molyneaux (the Company’s HR Manager will be in attendance). Under the Procedure, you have the right to be accompanied by a work colleague or employee representative and I understand that Jo Phillips has agreed to act as your companion.

Depending on the facts established, the outcome of this meeting could result in disciplinary action being taken against you up to and including dismissal. If you are found guilty of gross misconduct, you may be dismissed without notice or pay in lieu of notice; however, a decision will not be taken until you have had an opportunity to put forward your version of events, any mitigating circumstances and the meeting has been concluded.

respond his email as per how i have done above in red!

P.s. sending an invitation via email to attend an investigatory meeting is not sufficient it most be sent in writing i.e. (post) as you don't always receive emails all emails sent to you.

There's a lot - not sure how I can do it.

Never mentioned, and I must have only done it a couple of times.

Yes. Should I request he doesn't attend, or leave it as that could be used against them if need be.

There were a handful of comments made in emails to the same colleague as all the other emails. NEVER said to her, and as far as I'm aware she hasn't raised a complaint.

Don't mention anything about him chairing the manager - Where giving him the rope to hang himself with here and hes walking write in to it blindfolded.

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Ok, I'll plead ignorance about his presence. That surely would be deemed unfair as he is in no way impartial?

Thanks for the comments.

It is largely just expression of opinion. Admittedly I've potentially 'wasted work time' in doing so, but the emails are so short, 10 second types mostly!

Are you a lawyer?

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Shouldn't they have given me the internet logs if that's something they're using against me?

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2. That you have misused the Company’s e-mail system in work time.

Private use of email systems is permitted expressing an personal opinion privately to a colleague is not a misuse of the email system. Please provide evidence as to how the expressing of a personal opinion one has of Person A to Person B, amounts to misuse of email systems!

Do you read that private use is ok then?

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Ok, I'll plead ignorance about his presence. That surely would be deemed unfair as he is in no way impartial? Yep its unfair and therefore if you are dismissed or reprimanded in anyway it would be unfair and you can take the matter to tribunal!

Thanks for the comments.

It is largely just expression of opinion. Admittedly I've potentially 'wasted work time' in doing so, but the emails are so short, 10 second types mostly!

Are you a lawyer? No - But i was an Employer and ran two successful businesses up until recently. Though i planing to start another one soon! So am well versed in employment law, legislation and regulations! And i have helped hundreds of people successfully so long as they stayed the full course without giving up!

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Shouldn't they have given me the internet logs if that's something they're using against me? Yes - hence the request for evidence of your usage!

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Do you read that private use is ok then?

Yes it clearly says the use of the email system for private use is permitted!

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Also, if I'm found to have used the internet (which I may have done on the very odd occasion) in working time, where do I stand. This isn't one of their allegations mind you.,

If they find me 'guilty' of all the allegations can it amount to gross misconduct on the basis there are lots of 'misconduct' issues? Considering I've never had a warning/performance problem. The bullying comes under gross misconduct, but I really don't know how they can even suggest that.

It feels like they are knit-picking as well as exaggerating what they have got!

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Yes it clearly says the use of the email system for private use is permitted!

It does say in personal time though... mine weren't all in personal time (some were)

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Are you a lawyer? No - But i was an Employer and ran two successful businesses up until recently. Though i planing to start another one soon! So am well versed in employment law, legislation and regulations! And i have helped hundreds of people successfully so long as they stayed the full course without giving up!

I hope you're successful helping me!!

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Also, if I'm found to have used the internet (which I may have done on the very odd occasion) in working time, where do I stand. This isn't one of their allegations mind you., - Its a misdemeanor and doesn't amount to misconduct and it would be unreasonable to dismiss you because of it and if they did, they would have to justify your dismissal which they wouldn't be able to given the circumstances!

If they find me 'guilty' of all the allegations can it amount to gross misconduct on the basis there are lots of 'misconduct' issues? Considering I've never had a warning/performance problem. The bullying comes under gross misconduct, but I really don't know how they can even suggest that. - Thats why they have gone down the gross misconduct route, they have nit picked to try and find anything they can use against you especially the bullying allegation!

It feels like they are knit-picking as well as exaggerating what they have got! - I agree, i think they are too!

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It does say in personal time though... mine weren't all in personal time (some were) - They'd still have to show how expressing your opinion amounts to misconduct as per they allege.

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I hope you're successful helping me!!

I believe we will be, though i can not guarantee you won't be dimissed as i think the manager has already made that decision. But that is going to be his own downfall in the long run. As the fact hes the one chairing the investagatory meeting and disciplinary process against you, means the discipinary procedure taken against you is not impartial and therefore unfair, so regardless of what they alleged you did, the accusations would be irrelevant if the disciplinary process was unfair - Hence that is why hes hanging himself and we are feeding him the rope to do just that by letting them proceed with it!

His worse enemy is the fact hes over confident and think hes in full controll. When the reality is, hes only confident because we want him to think he is, and he only thinks hes in control because we want him to think he is. So its actually you that is in control not him!

Oh if possible record the meeting on your phone, leave your phone recording on the table and visit the toilet at some stage in the meeting - You will be surprised to hear what is said about you in the meeting room when you have left to visit the toilet. As i can guarantee the manger will make statements about you as a matter of opinion!

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Am I allowed to record it? I know it says I can't record the investigatory meeting...

Do you think it's clear from his actions/letters that he's made up his mind. I do, but them I'm biased. Although he did tell me to take all of my belongings/clear my desk when he suspended me.

Would that stand at a tribunal if it got to that? Do you think (using your responses above) that I've got any chance of changing his mind?

[eyh]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Also, not sure if it counts for anything but I had to chase for the letter including 'allegations' because I still hadn't received it by 1pm today. I also had to ask for the disciplinary procedure (as they hadn't previously provided me with that). That's not really 'reasonable time to prepare my case' in my opinion.

Is there any merit in me saying that I haven't seen the IT Policy - when they don't have proof (i.e. I haven't signed an IT policy/handbook), or can they just say it was available on the HR site?

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - pregnant and suspended for possible gross misconduct

Yes you are allowed to record the meeting - Just do it without them knowing! Its not different to making notes or minutes of the meeting - Plus employers have been known to include stuff in minutes that were never said or not include stuff that was said!

Yes hes obviously made his mind up, the fact its personal between you and him is also evidence hes made his mind up, not to mention the fact he brought up an absurd allegation of bullying and harassment solely for the purpose of strengthening his case hes building in order to dismiss you. What he doesn't know is that as hes chairing the meeting its therefore not an impartial process and therefore its irrelevant as to if you committed what hes alleged you did, as any disciplinary process (including investigatory stage) that is not wholly impartial that results in dismissal or reprimand would be unfair dismissal, plus a breach of disciplinary procedure and a breach of your contract! - Regardless as to whether you did commit misconduct or not!