Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I've been thinking about a bunch of stuff this company is guilty of, including pushing staff members including myself to work when sick, overlooking untrained staff members operating machinery, allowing female staff members to walk out in the warehouse without protective footwear, having a weekend shift with no staff members that are first aid trained, having members of staff working 12 days straight and then writing them abusive emails when they make fairly minor errors, conducting disciplinaries in full hearing of the office. I heard a senior member of staff once refer to black/Asian people as "monkeys" in full hearing of the office. I also heard another manager telling a working mother that he thought mothers should stay at home with their kids. I could probably come up with a lot more if I thought hard enough. I don't know how much of any of this stuff could work in my favour, but this company is hardly innocent when it comes to "gross misconduct".

(I was the shift supervisor and brought up the issue of first aid training with my manager in advance of my first shift but nothing was ever done about it)

In fact I'm probably missing out the best bit: I spoke to a guy in the warehouse who had previously had two hearings for gross misconduct and not been fired. There's such a culture there of people being threatened with these things and not fired that people in the warehouse were assuring me I wouldn't be fired. To be honest though, the guy in question speaks the right way i.e. with a working class accent. I'm posh. Although it might seem a bit extreme to bring "class discrimination" into it, I doubt it would be without basis. I didn't entirely fit in, act right or speak right according to that company's norms, and I'm sure that played some part in the decision.

Is this company a big company?

Cos i got an idea, and yes what you said above is very useful! :tinysmile_twink_t2:

Ohh and if they have a whistleblowing policy in the company hand book - Nows the time to post it up!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

"This policy covers your disclosure of information to us (or, in extreme circumstances) to an external person or body where you reasonably believe that one or more of the following is taking place, took place in the past or is likely to happen in the future:

• A criminal offence
• the breach of a legal obligation (e.g. breach of a contractual or other common law obligation, statutory duty or requirement or administrative requirement, including suspected fraud, malpractice or breach of a code of conduct)
• A miscarriage of justice
• A danger to the health and safety of any individual
• Damage to the environment, or
• A deliberate covering up of information relating to any of the above"

Then all the usual stuff about how you'll be protected from victimisation, and will only be subject to disciplinary action if your allegations are malicious or false.

OH AND YES THEY ARE A PRETTY BIG COMPANY, must have well over a hundred employees I'd guess.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

"This policy covers your disclosure of information to us (or, in extreme circumstances) to an external person or body where you reasonably believe that one or more of the following is taking place, took place in the past or is likely to happen in the future:

• A criminal offence
• the breach of a legal obligation (e.g. breach of a contractual or other common law obligation, statutory duty or requirement or administrative requirement, including suspected fraud, malpractice or breach of a code of conduct)
• A miscarriage of justice
• A danger to the health and safety of any individual
• Damage to the environment, or
• A deliberate covering up of information relating to any of the above"

Then all the usual stuff about how you'll be protected from victimisation, and will only be subject to disciplinary action if your allegations are malicious or false.

OH AND YES THEY ARE A PRETTY BIG COMPANY, must have well over a hundred employees I'd guess.

Right well then, include all that you know of their wrong doings in your appeal letter, pointing out to them that although they have dismissed you, you are still protected (point them to Onyango V Berkeley - http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT...7_12_2501.html) under protected disclosure to blow the whistle on them.

When i say blow the whistle i mean reporting them to health and safety etc, not publicly to the press!

Yes it may seem as blackmail, but its not as your not demanding anything of them i.e. specifically asking for job back. Instead your merely enforcing your right to appeal their decision whilst leaving the decision up to them. And informing them of what you know and may be prepared to do will give them something to think about as well!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I just spoke to the HR lady who confirmed that when asked for a reference, they only give out the dates the person worked there and nothing more. She said they're not allowed to do anything else. So given that this incident won't hurt my future career and given that I don't actually want to return there, I wonder what this appeal would achieve? The main thing I wanted to do was get "gross misconduct" off my record, but if that's not even likely to be an issue, then I might be better just to let it go, especially if the alternative is naming and shaming a bunch of my former colleagues who might at the moment be sympathetic to me but soon won't be. Unless I think I might get actual compensation out of this, is it really worthwhile? Is there any chance that might happen?

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I've just received the letter confirming my dismissal and providing notes on the meetings. I didn't mention this but they confirmed they would not be asking me for any salary payment back, despite my last payment covering the period up until 15th Dec (he said in the meeting it was up until the end of the month, so that may be a misunderstanding, but either way, not something I want to argue with). They have also confirmed in this letter that they will pay me 7 remaining days of holiday on my next paydate (I thought it was 10, but again perhaps not worth arguing).

There are a couple of definite errors in the transcripts that I noticed:

"You openly admitted that you didn't take the original conversation with XXXX seriously and this was down to your arrogance. As yet you have shown me no reason for this to change whatsoever"
"Yes"

I hardly would have agreed with that second statement. In fact I was shocked he made it in light of the contrition I'd shown.

Also this:

"We have not explored too much into the content of the internet usage, but I would stress that some websites would be classed as very risky when working in the same office as women"

I do recall him saying that some of the websites could be considered "risky", but he certainly didn't say "when working in the same office as women", as that's a statement I would have responded to.

He also says that some of the websites viewed "did not appear to be line with our equality policy", although he says he didn't take this into account as he wasn't asked to. Much as I accept that viewing websites like "hottest bikini babes" was a mistake (as I said above, I only did it on one single day, which was the day the prints of my usage started, coincidentally), it seems a stretch to say that this somehow constitutes unequal treatment of women. Also, a thought that occurs is that the Sun newspaper is bought most days and left lying around the warehouse, and this actually features partial nudity of women. That seems more of an issue than what one person views on their own computer which is probably hardly noticed. The nudity in the Sun (and the infamous Kim Kardashian booty shoot was featured in the period before I was dismissed) can be seen by anyone in the warehouse, including customers who are passing through. How is that not addressed under the same "equality policy"?

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Well its seems like you have decided to not go ahead with the appeal given what the HR lady told you about references. So is there any point now in worry about whats in the letter confirming dismissal? Probably not.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Deleted - Wrong Thread!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Well its seems like you have decided to not go ahead with the appeal given what the HR lady told you about references. So is there any point now in worry about whats in the letter confirming dismissal? Probably not.

Fair. My only question was whether there is any chance of getting compensation here.

I assume your second post was for another thread.

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Fair. My only question was whether there is any chance of getting compensation here.

I assume your second post was for another thread.

Ah yes your right second post was ment for another thread, not sure how it ended up in yours. Though i have habit of having number of threads open in my browser at any one time.

As for compensation - Only way you could get that would be by way of employment tribunal!

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Ah yes your right second post was ment for another thread, not sure how it ended up in yours. Though i have habit of having number of threads open in my browser at any one time.

As for compensation - Only way you could get that would be by way of employment tribunal!

Okay, point being if the gross misconduct thing won't hurt my career and I'm not looking for the job back, then appealing against the dismissal would be more about trying to get back at the company for mistreating me than achieving anything constructive. Yeah I think the way they've behaved is wrong, but I have a chance to move on here which I should probably take.

Hope you don't feel this has been wasted though cos it hasn't to me. Next place I work I will take a very different approach and keep myself informed. I will also keep a diary of any and all incidents that may happen in case things should turn sour. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it

[teaboy2]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Okay, point being if the gross misconduct thing won't hurt my career and I'm not looking for the job back, then appealing against the dismissal would be more about trying to get back at the company for mistreating me than achieving anything constructive. Yeah I think the way they've behaved is wrong, but I have a chance to move on here which I should probably take.

Hope you don't feel this has been wasted though cos it hasn't to me. Next place I work I will take a very different approach and keep myself informed. I will also keep a diary of any and all incidents that may happen in case things should turn sour. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it

Not be a waste at all, eitherway the advice myself and others here has helped you, which is the reason where here in the first place.

As to whether the gross misconduct issue will effect your career - Well depends on what industry your in, and what the now ex-employer says in your reference (which most be factual) and how perspective employers take such reference.

[krypton]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

FROM THE EMAIL AND INTERNET USE AND SECURITY POLICY:
"Failure to comply with the rules and conditions set out in this policy may lead to disciplinary action being taken against you. Specific examples of conduct that will be treated as gross misconduct are given in this policy but any serious breach(es) of this policy will also be treated as gross misconduct. Where we reasonably believe that you have committed gross misconduct you will normally be dismissed without notice and without any payment in lieu of notice"

"For the purposes of this policy, inappropriate, offensive, discriminatory, obscene or pornographic material (whether text, jokes, graphics, programmes, data, pictures, video and/or music clips, photographs or other images) is material that we consider (at our absolute discretion) to be racist, sexist or otherwise discriminatory, or which contains nudity or images of a sexual nature or which does or could cause offence to people or material that is illegal or defamatory"

Gross misconduct does not have to have verbal warnings. You can be fired on the spot.

You openly admitted in your disciplinary that you were verbally warned. Then you carried on using the internet including browsing things like bikini babes.

Your company policy says you will get fired for anything like that and that's why they probably fired you.

[Tools]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Not only that Jumpshot, by you posting your issue here it may have helped someone else facing similar issues to yourself. You now have your own clear plan of action and without discussing your options before hand you may not have reached that conclusion easily, it does help to discuss it with people detached and impartial from the situation, you have also found that in the main you are not being judged by people who know you personally.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Gross misconduct does not have to have verbal warnings. You can be fired on the spot.

You openly admitted in your disciplinary that you were verbally warned. Then you carried on using the internet including browsing things like bikini babes.

Your company policy says you will get fired for anything like that and that's why they probably fired you.

Kind of Krypton, the "inappropriate" thing is the only one that applies. Pictures of women in bikinis are not obscene or pornographic or "nudity". "Of a sexual nature" is debatable, but as I said, what about the Sun newspaper?

"I carried on using the internet browsing things like bikini babes" is not accurate either. I looked at some sites like that ON ONE DAY, 27th November. The verbal warning came on 4th November. So yeah, they had leeway to fire me based on the policy, but wouldn't have done so if they hadn't wanted to, considering all the other much worse stuff they overlook. Put it this way, it wouldn't have happened under my first manager. It's just because I wasn't a good fit with the second manager. That's ultimately the reason I got fired.

Anyway, as I said above, they are not going to say anything in my reference beyond the dates I work there, so that gives me an opportunity to put this behind me and do something different and better. I'll leave the thread at this point and thank everybody for their input. I will definitely look at this site again as it's been most helpful. Cheers everybody.

[krypton]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

You cannot claim it is 'appropriate' material to be browsing whilst at work. You were also warned that you were bringing unnecessary attention to your dept.

In the end you didn't heed the warnings and carried on as per normal. It sounds like you had been doing it for years and found it difficult/impossible to stop. Habitual behaviour does not make it right what you have been doing regularly and daily for a long, long time.

Subsequently, the manager/hr found nothing to warrant to say that you would stop/change so you got fired.

Ultimately what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. I realise you have lost your job and are upset but sites like this can only help if you are in some degree of the 'right'. I cannot see much unjustness in your case.

It may seem unfair compared to others in the dept but in this instance you got caught and you fessed up. You also had the benefit of a warning or wake up call. Your manager advised you were bringing unwanted attention to the dept and leave off. Most people would have followed that advice, especially if a new manager had come along.

Unfortunately, in this instance you really did not read the signs.

Your terms and conditions of employment states what constitutes Gross Misconduct and you've got yourself fired. Let that be a lesson and best move on.