Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

You cannot claim it is 'appropriate' material to be browsing whilst at work. You were also warned that you were bringing unnecessary attention to your dept.

In the end you didn't heed the warnings and carried on as per normal. It sounds like you had been doing it for years and found it difficult/impossible to stop. Habitual behaviour does not make it right what you have been doing regularly and daily for a long, long time.

Subsequently, the manager/hr found nothing to warrant to say that you would stop/change so you got fired.

Ultimately what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. I realise you have lost your job and are upset but sites like this can only help if you are in some degree of the 'right'. I cannot see much unjustness in your case.

It may seem unfair compared to others in the dept but in this instance you got caught and you fessed up. You also had the benefit of a warning or wake up call. Your manager advised you were bringing unwanted attention to the dept and leave off. Most people would have followed that advice, especially if a new manager had come along.

Unfortunately, in this instance you really did not read the signs.

Your terms and conditions of employment states what constitutes Gross Misconduct and you've got yourself fired. Let that be a lesson and best move on.

That's a very sensible description of what happened and perhaps I've allowed emotion to cloud my judgement a little here. It's just the "you've shown me no sign things would change" part. What's the point of me being contrite, sitting there swallowing my pride, and meaning it, if that's going to be disregarded as if it never happened? If I was going to be fired regardless (and that seems to be the case) they could have spared me humiliating myself.

At any rate, your point that moving on is best stands.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Hi all

Just wanted to let you know that there will hopefully be a happy ending for me! I started a temp job a couple of weeks ago and they've since offered me permanent, they're very pleased with me and have even increased my salary to account for petrol costs!

I was humbled by being called on my arrogance and complacence with regard to my previous job, and I think that change in attitude is what impressed the new employers. They will get a better employee because of this. So my advice to anyone who has been dismissed for gross misconduct is really this: learn the lessons from WHY this happened and improve yourself. Life will not punish you if you do the right thing (without wanting to go into karma or anything like that). The only person who loses in the end is the person who refuses to learn.

Thanks again for the advice and I hope to repay it someday when I have a little more experience and can advise on these things. I may be getting made a supervisor fairly quickly in this new role so may actually get to see things from a new point of view

[leclerc]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Great news for you Jumper and congratulations. I completely agree with your sentiments. Have a great Christmas

[rtbm]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Right,

First off, in my opinion, this is very dodgy. I cannot see how this can constitute Gross Misconduct (unless you count dishonesty). However, for me, it really means how much your dishonesty affected the company as a whole. Looking at 'bikini babes' was not a smart thing to do and you obviously realise your error of using the Internet, which is a very good start and are sorry, something which will also act in your favour. Also, since it is force of habit, it is perhaps somewhat understandable you went back to your old habits - but did your work or the company suffer significantly as a result? These are the things you should be looking at. Also, bikini babes is NOT something I class as pornography. Well, at the very best, soft-core porn, not the type of porn that would raise serious alarm bells as it is in good taste. Hell, even in the shops these days, women/men do modelling with limited clothing and is that classed as porn? I don't think so.

The worst thing I can see here is that you were dishonest and you said you wouldn't use the Internet and you went back to your old ways, albeit briefly. However, this, at the very best, is a mild dishonesty, not a dishonesty that is a serious offence (you need to scour the net for examples), but things such as theft etc. That's the type of dishonesty that can be classed gross misconduct. Not using the Internet. Its not the same thing. In the great scheme of things, you need to work out what it has cost the company in terms of time, money and production. If it transpires it hasn't cost the company anything (which it hasn't, in my opinion), they're going to have a very hard time constituting gross misconduct out of this case.

In the worst case scenario, this is a FIRST WARNING and nothing more - so difficult to prove GROSS MISCONDUCT in a case like this and I think if you got a GROSS MISCONDUCT penalty out of this, that is grossly unfair. Its not serious enough to warrant GROSS MISCONDUCT - there are too many alarm bells here for it to even be considered this! Also you might want to find out if anyone uses the internet out of their free time as well as this could be classed discrimination against an employee and that won't go down well, either.

I've been there this year as I was part of an investigation and I got a first warning for something I never did - even the officer investigating said it wasn't me and the union said there was nothing that concerned them. Other people I asked said it was rubbish and turgid as well. Even the person at the panel said I didn't say the more colourful comments (this was a Face Book case, I was supposed to have participated in, which I didn't). Therefore, if this was originally about the colourful comments, how does it justify me getting a warning?

Anyways, enough about me, but I think (you need to find your online documents about gross misconduct and get all the defensive evidence you can) you've got a good case here because to get a penalty of gross misconduct for using the Internet, especially considering the facts involved, would be very questionable.

Good Luck to you and PM me if you want any more information.

Regards

Hi all

So basically I've always used the internet a lot in free time at my job and have got used to it. My old manager used to sit behind me and would see me surfing the net when there was nothing else to do and never made an issue of it. However I have a new manager now and I don't know if that's the reason but for the first time in 3-4 years of working there I've had my internet usage brought up. Apparently I was in the top 5 of the company, with the rest being people who use the internet for their jobs, and upper management and the board were aware.

My manager told me I had better lay off as it was causing him and me negative attention. I said sure. I think he might have said something about sticking to lunchbreaks, but the way he put it across wasn't heavy. I cut right down that day but over the following few days I did access websites outside of lunchbreak. My usage was about 50% of what it had been but still not fully compliant with the company rules (stupid I know, I should have made sure I was fully compliant after knowing upper management and the board had their eyes on me, partly 3-4 years of habit taking back over, although still not an excuse).

Anyway I'm hit with gross misconduct which is not something I've had before. I had the investigatory meeting where I was incredibly contrite, said I had no excuse and was ashamed (I've stayed right off the internet since then). I have the disciplinary hearing this Thursday and am told I risk being dismissed without notice or pay in lieu of notice.

Anyone have any advice about anything further I could say or do that might help? Also how serious an issue do you think this may be when it comes to finding another job?

Thanks

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Thanks rtbm, but please see above, I have a new job now which is looking WAY better than the previous one. The only remaining possible issue is that they will ask for a reference from the previous company, and it's the company's policy to only confirm the dates I worked there (they don't offer anything more for anyone). I don't know if the directors of the new company will ask me if I have a personal reference I could give e.g. my old manager and if I say I don't I wonder if it could be an issue. If this question does come up, anyone have any ideas as to what it's best to say? I told the agency that put me in this temp job that "me and my manager didn't see eye to eye" and she didn't ask any further questions, but said she thinks people deserve a clean break and she doesn't need to know. I hope I can also keep it from my new employers, as they apparently "can't speak highly enough of me", and I'd rather not have to tell them anything that would diminish me. I seriously doubt it would jeopardise my job if I told them the truth, but I would just rather keep my reputation intact. Any thoughts?

[Amethyst]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Hi all

Just wanted to let you know that there will hopefully be a happy ending for me! I started a temp job a couple of weeks ago and they've since offered me permanent, they're very pleased with me and have even increased my salary to account for petrol costs!

I was humbled by being called on my arrogance and complacence with regard to my previous job, and I think that change in attitude is what impressed the new employers. They will get a better employee because of this. So my advice to anyone who has been dismissed for gross misconduct is really this: learn the lessons from WHY this happened and improve yourself. Life will not punish you if you do the right thing (without wanting to go into karma or anything like that). The only person who loses in the end is the person who refuses to learn.

Thanks again for the advice and I hope to repay it someday when I have a little more experience and can advise on these things. I may be getting made a supervisor fairly quickly in this new role so may actually get to see things from a new point of view

Very well said Jumpshot, good to hear everything is looking up for you.

Merry Christmas :christmas3:

[rtbm]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Thanks rtbm, but please see above, I have a new job now which is looking WAY better than the previous one. The only remaining possible issue is that they will ask for a reference from the previous company, and it's the company's policy to only confirm the dates I worked there (they don't offer anything more for anyone). I don't know if the directors of the new company will ask me if I have a personal reference I could give e.g. my old manager and if I say I don't I wonder if it could be an issue. If this question does come up, anyone have any ideas as to what it's best to say? I told the agency that put me in this temp job that "me and my manager didn't see eye to eye" and she didn't ask any further questions, but said she thinks people deserve a clean break and she doesn't need to know. I hope I can also keep it from my new employers, as they apparently "can't speak highly enough of me", and I'd rather not have to tell them anything that would diminish me. I seriously doubt it would jeopardise my job if I told them the truth, but I would just rather keep my reputation intact. Any thoughts?

Well done on getting a new job!!!! Yes, the reference will tell its own story but if they ask any questions, you must tell the truth, in my opinion - I think the agency was wrong to say, they don't need to know, they're going to know from the reference as this will speak volumes - just say you made a mistake, learnt your lesson and keen to move forward and prove yourself. Don't beat yourself up, though. As far as I am concerned, what you did was NOT serious enough to amount to Gross Misconduct. Using the internet out of your lunch break is NOT extremely serious behaviour (you were dishonest, but the dishonesty associated with gross misconduct, as far as I can tell, relates to much more serious stuff than using the internet, such as theft and you haven't stolen anything etcetera). Well, if your new employers are happy with you and they question your reference, just tell the truth and they'll admire your courage in telling the truth. Being deceitful will only make them doubt your integrity - you don't want that. They might even think, oh for goodness sake's, he got fired for that!? Telling the truth would keep your reputation intact, but other people don't need to know about it in the organisation, so ask management that you'd appreciate it that only those that need to know, need to know. I sympathise as I've been through an investigation and its incredibly stressful. I got a warning for something I didn't do. Good luck to you! Best.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I would much prefer honesty (I actually started typing dishonesty there, Freudian slip? ). I do think they will appreciate the honesty, and that they may also question the necessity of firing me if I tell them what I did. I don't have a major problem with that. Just wondering how willingly I should be coming forward with it. Like if they say "do you have a personal reference from your last company?" should I immediately saying, "well, there's a story behind that, here's what happened"? Or could I perhaps have a go at saying something else first like the "me and my manager didn't see eye to eye". Nothing wrong with saying that as long as it's not seen as covering up the truth, and I can go into more detail if necessary. Just don't want to immediately volunteer the full truth if something less involved would do.

[rtbm]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

I would much prefer honesty (I actually started typing dishonesty there, Freudian slip? ). I do think they will appreciate the honesty, and that they may also question the necessity of firing me if I tell them what I did. I don't have a major problem with that. Just wondering how willingly I should be coming forward with it. Like if they say "do you have a personal reference from your last company?" should I immediately saying, "well, there's a story behind that, here's what happened"? Or could I perhaps have a go at saying something else first like the "me and my manager didn't see eye to eye". Nothing wrong with saying that as long as it's not seen as covering up the truth, and I can go into more detail if necessary. Just don't want to immediately volunteer the full truth if something less involved would do.

i would just be honest and cover nothing up because if it comes out why you left the other company, it may cause further issues down the line. I think your dismissal is harsh but just move on. Don't make the same mistakes again and you'll be fine. It's all such hypocrisy because nobody at work, works 100 percent. How boring would that be and mind numbing? Heck I go in the net at work when it's quiet because if you've done all the work, what else can you do if there's nothing else to do? Read a book, newspaper etc., then it doesn't look like you are working. You can't win. I work in a very particular place and there's no coming together, it's very much come in, do your job and go home. Some of my colleagues are ok, but you get those types as well. The situation with me and FB has ruined my working relationship now with my workplace and if I'm being honest, I do not want to return there. Be quite happy working on another establishment, but not back there. No system there to work towards. Just hate it. Anyways, be fully honest and they'll appreciate it more than if they found out later down the line,mooi were hiding something.

[krypton]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

The only remaining possible issue is that they will ask for a reference from the previous company, and it's the company's policy to only confirm the dates I worked there (they don't offer anything more for anyone). I don't know if the directors of the new company will ask me if I have a personal reference I could give e.g. my old manager and if I say I don't I wonder if it could be an issue.

Companies tend to only confirm dates worked and some may confirm your position. It is very/highly unlikely a company will give personal references.

Should a company or individual give a bad reference they are liable to be sued which is why they refrain from doing that.

If your new company ask for a personal reference it doesn't have to be your previous manager anyway.

[Jumpshot]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Surprise surprise, my manager (the same one who served me for gross misconduct) actually gave me a positive reference! I haven't spoken to him since leaving and I only gave the name of the HR lady, so I'm not sure how the temp agency ended up speaking to him, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth!

[Tools]

Re: Disciplinary hearing for gross misconduct

Glad to hear you have found work, xmas isn't exactly an inexpensive time.