Help !! 3 months after signing compromise they now want evidence i have complied !!!!

[BOBBYMOOREISGOD]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Dear all,

Thank you for all your help and advice.

I have taken legal advice and all I can do is sit tight and smile through gritted teeth and say nothing. Legally they are within their rights to send me home on full pay whilst they carry on with their "investigation" into whether or not I "may" have broken the company procedures. This could go on for weeks.

The so called audit has been going on for nearly two months and I now have been suspended on full pay for a week, I have lots of good friends in work who I socialise with and I am cut off from everybody as I cannot speak to them. I have lots of clients who will have been asking where I am, and they are now being baby sat by people who do the same job as me, so the orders they will have been placing will be getting looked after by other account managers, so my years of hard work of bringing in clients, building them up and securing long term repeat business will now be cherry picked away from me. Again all part of their plans.

I know that this is a set up and they are bullying me legally, god knows why its taking so long for them to provide any evidence but I am in a lose lose situation. I have been sending out CV's as they have got what they wanted. They have cut me off and legally "screwed" me by forcing me to look for other jobs.

Me and my family are in limbo but I am now past caring about this set of *******, 11 years of service without a day of sick and a clean sheet on my employment record and this is all the thanks I get, a trumped up bull sh*t charge against me that they haven't got the balls or the respect to inform me as to what exactly I have "supposedly" done. Even if they say "come back to work son" we haven't found anything, how can I ever return to that place after what they have done. Again all part of their plans.

I asked for copies of my contract, company handbook and disciplinary procedures policy 3 days ago via email and still they have not send them.

The law is a complete joke when it comes to being legally bullied as I am in this situation. If I have done something wrong then after over 2 months of audit and investigations surely they should know by now. I think it is abhorrent how they are treating me and my family.

I will keep everybody informed of the next set of lies to come out of their mouths and if a letter with evidence ever does land on my door mat.

So do I , turn the anger into energy, find another job and hand in my notice, or go on long term sick with the stress, use their company car to look for other jobs then hand in my notice and go for constructive dismissal. They are playing me like a fiddle so do I need to start with the dirty tactics also ???

[wales01man]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

You must fight for your legal rights and if its the end of this job for you get everyrthing you are entitled to.
They maybe acting legally in all this that off course is no consolation to you .In a lot of cases like this there are other reasons as to why it is happening that are not of your doing.

Maybe time to move on if you feel this will not end in your favour,Take advantage of the time off to find that new job and wait to see how this pans out all of us on LB feel for you but you must remember to watch for them to slip up and then hit them hard if they want you out its a certainty they will.

[Harmonica]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Indeed it would appear that you are being forced out of your job. They must have a reason for wanting to do this. Whether that reason is legitimate or not only time will tell but you are being lawfully bullied unfortunately. Your employer will be aware of the hell that they are putting you through with their vague implications that you "may" have done something wrong. Many people have been where you are.

Unscrupulous employers use suspension as a means of lawful intimidation. The NHS are particularly adept at it. Because they have limitless public funds they have been known to suspend unwanted employees on full pay for years until the employee can take no more and leaves. Nobody would blame you for leaving given how you've been treated. There are huge uncertainties ahead and nobody can tell you what is going to happen. However, if you can you should wait it out and see what it is you've been accused of. They may unfairly dismiss you and you might be able to get a settlement.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

I have taken legal advice and all I can do is sit tight and smile through gritted teeth and say nothing. Legally they are within their rights to send me home on full pay whilst they carry on with their "investigation" into whether or not I "may" have broken the company procedures. This could go on for weeks.

The so called audit has been going on for nearly two months and I now have been suspended on full pay for a week, I have lots of good friends in work who I socialise with and I am cut off from everybody as I cannot speak to them.

Yes, they are within their rights to suspend people while they carry out an investigation and they'd normally warn everyone against contacting suspended employees in any way, although not everyone complies, a couple of former colleagues were in regular touch during the nearly two months I was suspended, I even used to ring one of them at work as he had a direct line.

I asked for copies of my contract, company handbook and disciplinary procedures policy 3 days ago via email and still they have not send them.

You could send a SAR to your employers, they'd have 40 days to respond but it could turn up some useful info, since they are *supposed* to send you ALL data they've got about you, not just the above.

I once sent a SAR to my employers while I was suspended and they responded in less than 40 days, with reams of paper, only hardly any of it was actually useful or relevant, and it had all been 'sanitised', but someone else I know who had only been employed a few months got much more out of his SAR.

So do I , turn the anger into energy, find another job and hand in my notice, or go on long term sick with the stress,

No reason why you couldn't do a bit of both...

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Me and my family are in limbo but I am now past caring about this set of *******, 11 years of service without a day of sick and a clean sheet on my employment record and this is all the thanks I get, a trumped up bull sh*t charge against me that they haven't got the balls or the respect to inform me as to what exactly I have "supposedly" done. Even if they say "come back to work son" we haven't found anything, how can I ever return to that place after what they have done. Again all part of their plans.

You have to thread carefully here. If you felt the need to resign, the only recourse you'd have would be constructive dismissal, cases involving this have a success rate of just 3%.

As you've been there 11 years, they can't easily dismiss you without a valid reason, and by the sounds of it, it looks like they've not found one, otherwise they wouldn't be keeping you suspended on full pay, they'd have scheduled a disciplinary.

use their company car to look for other jobs then hand in my notice and go for constructive dismissal. They are playing me like a fiddle so do I need to start with the dirty tactics also ???

As I posted above, this argument isn't easy to win at all! :nono:

You may want to look at this: http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/the...smissal-claim/

Q What does the employee have to prove?

A The employee has to show that they have resigned in response to a fundamental breach of contract by the employer. The Employment Rights Act 1996 essentially says that if the employee terminates their contract in circumstances in which they are entitled to do so without notice because of the employer’s conduct, that termination constitutes a dismissal.Sometimes that conduct will be the breach of an express term of the contract of employment, such as the right to be paid a certain amount on a certain date. More commonly, it will be that the employer’s behaviour has breached the term of mutual trust and confidence that is implied into all contracts of employment. The term basically requires employers to refrain from conducting themselves in a manner that is likely to destroy or seriously damage the relationship of trust and confidence between employer and employee. Examples of such conduct may include isolating the employee, humiliating them in front of others and falsely accusing the employee of misconduct.

Q How easy is it to show constructive dismissal?

A Constructive dismissal is far more difficult to prove than employees often think. First they must prove a fundamental (rather than minor) breach of contract by the employer.

The employee must also show that their decision to terminate their employment was in response to the breach and not, for example, because they had been offered a more attractive job. An employment tribunal will also need to satisfy itself that the employee did not delay too long in resigning. A tribunal will usually expect an employee to have tried to resolve the complaint through the grievance procedure before jumping ship.

[BOBBYMOOREISGOD]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Evidence letter now here.


As I thought what a load of b****x (pardon my french !!!) its just a set up.


The so called audit has been carried out by one individual on the phone probing clients I have visited for answers about me / was I dressed smart / did I seem professional / did I promote the company / was I on time etc etc etc. The whole audit was done via a phone conversation with a set of questions and they then did a report based on the clients answers.


Due to traffic problems / crashes / bad weather etc etc etc when setting off from my home in the north of England to say Dover for a meeting because I was late due to traffic even though the client has stated I called them ahead to advise I would be late they are saying I should have called the office to advise I was going to be late so they could then call and advise the client on my behalf and the office could then call me back to say that the client was aware I would be late !!!!!!! what a waste of time when I have already done it as a courtesy call !!! They also said that I am not going through everything that the company does ??? strange when I am the top performing account manager for the last 11 years doing double the work of others in the exact same role ???


On several occasions within their audit I had called the client to say I would be arriving on time and I look forward to seeing them, and the client had either forgotten I was coming / was busy / had double booked me or the tender was not due for another year and it would be a wasted journey, so I turned back round went back to the office and noted this all on the system. They are saying that I am claiming false mileage even though I actually went to within a few miles of the site and then turned back round and went back to the office !!!!


My questions are to the forum is that I am now certain the clients in the audit has been give pre loaded questions to set me up and it is all on the say so of one individual. How do I know this individual is not telling lies ????????? Am I allowed to contact the clients or call them to the disciplinary meeting as witnesses as I only have the word of one individual from our office carrying out the telephone audit on their so called phone call to the client. There is a common sense explanation for all my accusations. I want to contact the clients to verify that the conversation even took place and what was said so I can counter argue against my accusations.


In the last 11 years I have never had one single complaint from any client and my sales figures year in year out speak for themselves.


The person carrying out the audit is so far attached from my world they may as well be an alien. I have 6 meetings a week and do 50K business miles a year across the UK for our business so obviously an 11am meeting in central London often has to be moved on the day due to the horrendous traffic problems or bad weather. I often get to site and I am kept waiting by the client because they have overran meetings etc etc etc


None of my accusations are in the disciplinary procedures or staff company handbook and this is the first time it has ever been brought to my attention.


I am fuming at how they are trying to make a huge problem out of a storm in a thimble cup.


They want me in for a hearing next Wednesday, they are not having any witnesses from their side, so can I get the clients as witnesses for me ???????

[bluebottle]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

This sounds more like harassment or is bordering on harassment which can backfire in an employer's face. This is because it is dealt with by court and both the employer and employee have to follow Civil Procedures Rules. ET rules don't apply and the employer cannot get away with what they seem to get away with at ET hearings. It can also prove very expensive for the employer in terms of cost as well as loss of reputation as an employer.

[Harmonica]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

They want me in for a hearing next Wednesday, they are not having any witnesses from their side, so can I get the clients as witnesses for me ?

No. The client is not an employee of the firm so unless the client actually wants to come in and be your witness (which is highly unlikely) then there is nothing you can do to compel them to attend your hearing. You can ask your employer for evidence that these client interviews/audit actually took place. Also ask your employer for permission to contact these clients directly so that you can verify what they said and that the interviews actually took place. They will not have to give you any evidence that the audit took place and they will not give you permissin to contact the clients either. They will assume that you should believe them. However, by refusing to allow you to contact the witnesses and to verify their claims you will be able to use this as evidence of an unfair procedure. You could politely remind your employer that if you go to an employment tribunal you will be able ask the court to compel these clients to come forward as witnesses.

If these breaches of company policy/procedure actually took place, given your previous good conduct and performance, your employer could and should have just taken you to one side and informally had a quiet word about it and asked you to keep it in check going forward.

However, they have chosen not to do that so be under no illusion, for whatever reason, your employers are trying to dismiss you. That job is almost certainly finished for you. Even if they back down and decide not to dismiss it will probably only be because they felt they couldn't get away with it on this occasion. Barring a sudden and unexplained change of heart they will try again.

It is now your job to ensure that they dismiss you unfairly so that you can claim for unfair dismissal. Do you have any statements from the client or a record of the answers that they have given to the questions? You need to formulate questions based on what your employer claims these clients have said.

[BOBBYMOOREISGOD]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Hi Harmonica,

the whole audit took place from one individual on a phone calling clients so isn't everything they said "hearsay" how can a private meeting / conversation between me and a client hundreds of miles away from my office be used as evidence against me ??? isn't it my word against theirs or just misinterpretation of the facts ??

Can I ask for the full audit details / list of questions and actually when the clients were phoned, another worry is the office calls the client 6 weeks after our meeting and starts quizzing them again "hearsay" and my word against the clients.

How do I know the calls ever took place ???? again can I ask for phone records and evidence ????

I definitely need to speak to clients to establish how many questions they asked, for instance if 30 questions were asked but they tripped me up on just 2 points then surely I am doing my job correctly, sadly it seems on every case they have put against per client they keep asking the same question, was I there on time and in the clients opinion was it a "quick" meeting ?????????

Again, I call a 2 hour meeting in depth where as the client may be used to 4 hour meetings etc etc etc etc

They have nothing concrete at all on me, it is all information gathered in a phone call from an individual in the office to the individual client, they have set up questions and took their answers as gospel and try to finger me for it.

For instance on one of the cases they said I falsely claimed mileage because I never attended the meeting and that's it nothing else.

The reality was in this instance I was 3 miles away from the meeting and the motorway was totally closed both ways because of a chemical spillage, so me and the client agreed we would reconvene at a later date and I drove back to the office. My mileage sheet obviously showed the miles I did because I did in fact travel all but the last 3 miles to the clients door but had to turn around because of the motorway closure. They are making me out to be a criminal but me and the client and the phone records can confirm all this is true, so would that charge against me be dropped if I ask for the client to testify at the meeting ????

[Harmonica]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

You can and should ask all of these questions of your employer. You can and should ask for phone records and evidence that the audit actually took place. If they do not give a satisfactory response then it can be used in your defence.

They have nothing concrete at all on me, it is all information gathered in a phone call from an individual in the office to the individual client, they have set up questions and took their answers as gospel and try to finger me for it.

The brutal truth is, in employment law, an employer doesn't actually need anything concrete to dismiss. They simply need to be able to show that they have carried out a reasonable investigation prior to deciding to dismiss. The decisions they make only have to be based on the balance of probabilities. They are allowed to get things "wrong" and still be able to say that they were acting reasonably and in good faith. It is your job to make their decisions look as improbable as possible. Contact the clients if you feel they might be of help to you. However, bear in mind that your employer might not look favourably on you doing this without their permission and might even view it as misconduct. As you are on suspension you have probably been told not to contact anyone at work and that would include clients. If you contact clients and your employer finds out they could probably dismiss you for that alone.

For instance on one of the cases they said I falsely claimed mileage because I never attended the meeting and that's it nothing else.

The reality was in this instance I was 3 miles away from the meeting and the motorway was totally closed both ways because of a chemical spillage, so me and the client agreed we would reconvene at a later date and I drove back to the office. My mileage sheet obviously showed the miles I did because I did in fact travel all but the last 3 miles to the clients door but had to turn around because of the motorway closure. They are making me out to be a criminal but me and the client and the phone records can confirm all this is true, so would that charge against me be dropped if I ask for the client to testify at the meeting ????

What you have given is a reasonable explanation for your extra mileage. If the phone records and the client can corroborate what you say then a dismissal on this basis is very likely to be unfair. However, what you know or believe means nothing. It's what you can prove.

[Mr $quanda£ot]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Nowadays you have to be very careful and mindful of what you do outside the work and even on the Internet.

Could someone have reported you? Even someone outside work?

I am aware of a case where someone was reported to their employers, accusing the person of a gross misconduct. Subsequenly the company carried out their own investigation and the person got fired. That resulted in them getting repossesed. All that for not being mindful enough on the Internet!

[BOBBYMOOREISGOD]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Ok, They have given me around a dozen individual cases to answer, the audit was carried out by one individual over the phone.


Am I allowed to ask for further evidence such as.


*The company phone records to confirm the phone call actually took place.
*The list of questions raised by the individual to the client and what the responses were.
*The notes taken by the person who was compiling the phone call.
*I also need to speak to the client to confirm what questions they were asked and to confirm their responses and go through my conversations and what we went over at the meeting. I obviously need to ask my employee if I can bring the clients to the hearing as a witness but will the company refuse ?? How can I get the client to confirm whether or not the phone call happened ???
*How do I know that the person in the office even made the phone call, and did they even ask all the questions
*Am I allowed to ask how many other people were involved in the audit
*Am I allowed to ask what the list of questions posed to each client and their responses to each question
*Am I allowed to ask for the individuals notes who was compiling the audit, otherwise the only evidence they have is an individuals phone conversation, how can anybody prove what was said at a meeting, the client says "***** never mentioned etc etc etc and I say, I'm sorry Bill to you remember when you brought me a cup of tea we were actually discussing etc etc etc and Bill then says, o yes ***** I remember now, ******* we did actually talk about it. This individual in several of the cases in the audit has rang the client 5 weeks after I have met with them and they are basing accusations against me on a verbal conversation, they have no concrete evidence at all. Isn't this deemed as hearsay ??? my word against a clients ??? does the employee not have to prove beyond doubt that I have wilfully broke the rules ??? They are also trying to say if the motorway is blocked, even though I have already rang the client as a courtesy to say I may be a little late, I should have rang somebody in the office to tell them the motorway is blocked ??? I drive 50k business miles a year so why do I need to tell the office of every traffic jam / incident when I am 300 miles away from the office ????



My huge problem is they have nothing concrete on me, it is a storm in a tea cup and everything is hearsay based on a conversation between the single employee compiling the audit questions and the client at the other end. Since the audit began I have actually received contracts and orders from several of the clients involved in the audit which makes whether I was 20 minutes late for the meeting due to heavy snow just laughable. I must be doing something good for the client to place thousands of pounds worth of work.

[bluebottle]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Have you done anything that you can think of that would make them want to sack you on trumped up charges? Hold fire on pointing the finger at other peoples wrongdoing until you know what you're being accused of. If they want you out then be prepared to dig the dirt on them so at least you'll have some leverage to perhaps negotiate a settlement. Put in a subject access request and ask to see all the data the company has on you including emails, statements etc.. http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/personal_information

They don't have to give you everything because if someone else has made a statement about you they can refuse to have their identity disclosed and can refuse to have the statement released to you because they have the right not to have their confidentiality breached. But you never know, it might throw up some incriminating emails about you that you can use for your defence. It might be such a headache for them to organise that it may prompt them to think again about any possible charges they were going to make against you.

I would also go into every meeting you have from now on with a dictaphone on record. If they dismiss you they must follow a fair procedure. Record them and hope they make msitakes that may be used as evidence at an employment tribunal, should it come to that.

These sort of cases can normally be dealt with within the ambit of existing Employment Law, but there comes a point when a line is crossed and the conduct of the employer and other employees ceases to be a purely Employment Law manner and becomes a Civil or, even, Criminal Law matter.

The Majrowski and Michelak cases are exceptional cases where the conduct of the employers, managers and other employees went beyond the pale, but, nevertheless, resulted in the employers involved being given the judicial equivalent of a bloody good hiding. In the Michelak case, the employer ended up with a bill for damages and costs totalling £4.1m and two managers involved were ordered to pay damages of £20k and £30k, respectively, out of their own pockets for their part in the bullying to which Dr Michelak was subjected. In the Majrowski case, the employer ended up having to pay £250k in damages.

The managers and employers in the OP's case need to be gently, but firmly, reminded of the outcome of both the Majrowski and Michelak cases and that they should desist from their current course of conduct forthwith. The fact they have done this sort of thing before does not bode well for them. If this were to be made known to an ET or, if pursued against the employer under the Protection from Harassment Act 1998, my gut-feeling is that the employer and the managers involved would not come out of it at all well. It would, in all probability, cause significant damage to the business's reputation as an employer and, if a limited company, questions could be asked as regards the fitness of those running the company to act as company directors.

Harmonica's advice in respect of covert recording of meetings is good. Judges will allow such evidence, but please ensure the original recording is archived for evidential purposes and a transcript produced. If the case goes to ET or court, copies of the transcript and recordings will need to be provided.

[teaboy2]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

Regarding the employers phone calls to clients as part of the so called audit - Your entitled to copies of all evidence, including phone call recordings prior to any disciplinary hearing. If no recordings exist or they refuse to present them to you in advance of the hearing, and instead try to rely on transcripts of the calls (which are likely to not be signed by the client to confirm accuracy). Then they'll struggle to have enough evidence to take action against you.

Audits should not be carried out over the phone, but in writing. They should have sent written questionnaires with signature box to the all clients you have met with in the last 6-12months.

As for being suspended, they should be reviewing your suspension every couple of weeks, and suspension should be kept to as minimum amount of time as possible. In other words, the longer the suspension continues the less likely the employer is acting reasonably. How long have you been suspended for so far? and has they held any review regarding your suspension?

If they ae looking to rely soley on the phone questionaire to clients, then i doubt they had any need to suspend you in the first place, given that it probably took less than 1 day to ring those clients up!

[Harmonica]

Re: Please help - my company is setting me up for the sack on trumped up accusations

In the Majrowski case, the employer ended up having to pay £250k in damages.

This case is always good to refer to when establishing an employers vicarious liability. However, it should be remembered that it only took place due to the fact that the harassment that Majrowski was was subjected to was because he was gay and current legislation at the time did not offer adequate protection to employees based on this. Now that we have the Equalities Act 2010 this case would almost certainly have been an employment law matter.