Dismissal after being assaulted at work

[leclerc]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

I have a couple of observations to make:

1) Has the allegation that the woman made, even after the fact that you were assaulted, been investigated? The allegation is that an attack took place in the car park(there should be CCTV footage of the incident). The other issue is about your attitude towards a member of staff. I am surprised that you were not spoken at the time, ie your line manage or their line manager, even if it was an informal chat.

2) Sorry Anne, I don't believe it's a conspiracy but it might be mistaken identity on the part of the wife since the alleged attack happened in the car park and she may well have not been clear. However, if a woman was attacked then the incident must be reported to the police.

3) I would say that throwing a punch in the incident was imho not good at all however, you were headbutted.

Personally, I think the woman's allegations need to be investigated and YOU need to know the result of that investigation. If the investigation is ongoing then the disciplinary should be delayed until that investigation is concluded. In terms of the second issue of allegedly having an issue with the line manager or colleague then it could be the case that what you have said is nothing particularly provocative but that the receiver has taken it as such.

[squidgearooney]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

Hi Leclerc,

The incident regarding the alleged incident with the woman in the car park was never reported neither to the store or the police which is very odd if indeed it did happen. I wasn't even working on the day in question and to prove this I have asked for the CCTV footage from that day to be reviewed. I have also asked the police to look into this allegation. Your point that the disciplinary should be delayed until this has been investigated is a good one and I shall ask this to be addressed, thank you.

With regards to the incident with the other member of staff (my line manager), I am sure that what this relates to is where she was actually out of order with me and when I said I think I should speak to the union about it she got aggressive with me. Later that same day I spoke with the store assistant manager and explained what had happened and asked that he speak to her, not to tell her off, just to ask her that me and her could chat the next day when she had had time to calm down so that we could discuss it and clear the air. The next day this indeed happened and she apologised to me. As far as I am aware no records were made by the company but it now seems that these records may suddenly appear. Fortunately for me, having been screwed over by an employer in the past, I recorded the conversation with my line manager the following day on my mobile phone, where she states she wants to clear the air and apologises. Clearly my employer do not yet know that I have this recording.

In hindsight I agree that reacting by striking my attacker was probably not the best course of action although I was quite within my legal rights to do so. However, the alternative would have been to walk away but this guy was so aggressive I was actually afraid to turn my back on him even before he headbutted me. I think it was kind of a no win situation but its happened now and I cannot change that unfortunately.

Thanks

[leclerc]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

If the police are investigating assault, then clearly the motives behind that should be part of that, ie the alleged incident with this woman in the car park.

With regards to the recording, I'd make sure you type out a transcript of the conversation, merely as backup, so that if there is a query as to what has been said, then you can state that you have a transcript of the meeting and if need be you can supply them a recording of the interview should they so wish.

[squidgearooney]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

Thanks Leclerc, you are correct that the police need to investigate the alleged motives behind the attack and I will be bringing this to their attention. I will type up transcripts of the meeting if required.

One further point you or someone else may be able to help with is...

I actually had booked two weeks holiday and therefore my last day of work should have been Saturday 28th June (day after the incident) and I should have returned to work after my holiday on Friday 18th July. Clearly my suspension overrules this and I will still be entitled to these holidays. My question though is this. During my holiday period, the first week I had no plans, however, the second week I had planned to spend a few days with my friend of 30 plus years and his family as they are emigrating to Canada. This includes a 'leaving party' to which of course I have an invitation. I want to attend this for obvious reasons but also I want to sort this situation with my employer out too. My employer insists that I MUST be available to attend any meetings during my normal working hours. There is currently no meeting arranged for the times I plan to be with my friend but if my employer now decides to hold a meeting on one of those days am I within my rights to say no due to previous obligations? At the end of the day I had booked time off specifically for this reason as it clashed with my working hours.

Thanks

[enquirer]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

In hindsight I agree that reacting by striking my attacker was probably not the best course of action although I was quite within my legal rights to do so. However, the alternative would have been to walk away but this guy was so aggressive I was actually afraid to turn my back on him even before he headbutted me. I think it was kind of a no win situation but its happened now and I cannot change that unfortunately.

No - you did the right thing. Had you not defended yourself, what then? No-one but the most odious brief or half-witted magistrate would suggest that you must allow yourself to be harmed.

A little known fact - you can, in certain circumstances, actually strike the first blow.

[ironman]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

For you employer to require you to attend any disciplinary meetings, 48 hours prior written notice is required

[squidgearooney]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

I agree that at the time that I did do the right thing and that I am allowed by law to defend myself. But from the point of view of my employment issue, if I had not struck him at all, yes I would have probably suffered even worse injuries, however my employer would not even be able to state that I had assaulted anyone. I have read a lot about this over the last week, especially the law, and you are indeed correct that if I felt threatened and in fear of violence I have the right to make what is known as a 'pre-emptive strike' which by law basically means that if I feel in danger of violence that I do not have to wait to be attacked before defending myself.

I am hopefully speaking with the police again today. If they are taking no action against me for any alleged assault then surely my employer then cannot dismiss me for an assault too? But who knows...

[ironman]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

The basic principles of self-defence are set out in (Palmer v R, [1971] AC 814); approved in R v McInnes, 55 Cr App R 551:

"It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary."

[squidgearooney]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

Thanks Ironman, duly noted. I think I did read this somewhere however I will be making a point of raising this point should I feel the need to do so,

cheers

[squidgearooney]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

Hi all,

just wanted to give an update. On Monday 7th july the police came and arrested me on suspicion of affray in relation to this incident. The male attacker has alleged that I actually assaulted him by grabbing his testicles and that he then headbutted me in retaliation. I never did this. The police have shown me the CCTV footage and to be honest it isn't very clear. It does not show that I grabbed the male although the police questioned why I had my hands in 'that position' as they put it, they were actually down by my side! I have been bailed until mid September.

The police have not arrested me for assault.N
The CCTV footage does not show me doing anything other than the single blow with my right fist after the male had headbutted me which fortunately is clearly shown.
The police will not be even speaking to me again until mid September.

With the above facts, can my employer actually take action against me for an alleged assault which is clearly their intention.

Another point raised by the police clearly goes in my favour also. The female who had instigated the incident following an alleged incident between her and myself in the car park the previous day, actually gave a totally different story in her statement to the police. She told the police that on the 12th June 2014, some 2 weeks prior to the assault, I had allegedly 'stepped out in front of her car forcing her to slam on her brakes to avoid hitting me', that I had then 'shouted and swore at her several times' and that I had 'refused to move from in front of her car forcing her to drive around me in order to leave the scene'.

I know full well the incident to which she refers and, due to having previous incidents where I have come close to being run over (sometimes while with my young son), I actually have the whole thing recorded on my mobile phone with both video and audio :-) the video clearly shows that what she says is a total lie. (if anyone is interested in this I am willing to post the video if it is legal, I think it is but I need to check first as I don't want to get in more trouble!) but if required I could show this to my employers to prove that this woman is a blatant liar.

Surely common sense would say that I shouldn't be dismissed or indeed have any action taken against me for this incident?

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

My my, what a sorry state of affairs..
Just what is your Union Rep doing?????
He should be questioning any potential witnesses and getting written statements from them.
While suspended, you do not lose any wages or benefits, except overtime that is not part of your contract of employment.
DO NOT post any videos or other documentation on-line.
It is legal but forewarned is forearmed.
While you cannot approach members of staff in their workplace while on suspension, you can visit them out of the work environment, for example at the home address, or in a pub.
Your company has no authority over you or other staff members, outside of the workplace and in their staff's own time.

You stated and I quote;
I have union membership and so contacted my store union rep. Over the last week he has looked into this and relayed information to myself. The store management have told him that I should expect either a final written warning or dismissal for 'bringing the company into disrepute'.
Now if you can prove this, a statement from your Union rep, then it's case dismissed, full stop.
The manager has made a pre-meditated judgement of your case, presumed your guilt before any fair and just hearing.
As such no disciplinary action is possible or allowed for under English law.
Try and get your Union Rep to use this as your defence.
If he agrees, then it should stop procedures in their tracks.

You also stated and I quote;
As I was leaving with the police the duty manager called me into the managers office and handed me a piece of paper stating that I was suspended pending an investigation into the incident.
The duty manager should have told you your rights, and the right to have a witness/Union rep in with you, before handing you any suspension.
I would use this in any appeal..
Company manager acted outside of procedures, so case dismissed.

Ask your Union Rep to obtain for you, copies of the Companies Disciplinary, Grievance and Appeals procedures.
Remember the Shop Steward is your representative, he must tell management anything that you want him too.
You have the right to dismiss him/her at any time and chose any member of staff to take their place as your representative.
You can even represent yourself, but you should be aware of the Company Disciplinary procedures, and know how to approach each stage.
Stick to procedures, never stray outside of them. If you do, then you will lose your case.
Point out to your Union Rep, that under current Health & Safety Legislation, a company is responsible for your welfare in the workplace,
THIS IS FROM ACAS.....
Employers have a duty of care to their employees, which means that they should take all steps which are reasonably possible to ensure their health, safety and well-being. Demonstrating concern for the physical and mental health of your workers shouldn't just be seen as a legal duty - there's a clear business case, too. It can be a key factor in building trust and reinforcing your commitment to your employees, and can help improve staff retention, boost productivity and pave the way for greater employee engagement.

Legally, employers must abide by relevant health & safety and employment law, as well as the common law duty of care. They also have a moral and ethical duty not to cause, or fail to prevent, physical or psychological injury, and must fulfil their responsibilities with regard to personal injury and negligence claims.
Requirements under an employer's duty of care are wide-ranging and may manifest themselves in many different ways, such as:

• Clearly defining jobs and undertaking risk assessments
• Ensuring a safe work environment
• Providing adequate training and feedback on performance
• Ensuring that staff do not work excessive hours
• Providing areas for rest and relaxation
• Protecting staff from bullying or harassment, either from colleagues or third parties
• Protecting staff from discrimination
• Providing communication channels for employees to raise concerns
• Consulting employees on issues which concern them.

An employer can be deemed to have breached their duty of care by failing to do everything that was reasonable in the circumstances to keep the employee safe from harm. Employees also have responsibilities for their health and well-being at work - for example, they are entitled by law to refuse to undertake work that isn't safe without fear of disciplinary action.

As the man in question, came into the store in what was a pre-meditated action, in order to confront you, then the company should be addressing that issue.
You do have a legal right to defend yourself, and your employer should be made aware of that fact.
I used to work for TESCO and I was an U.S.D.A.W Senior Shop Steward.
Try to keep a little something up your sleeve as ammunition for future stages of any procedure.
You could also start Stage One of a Grievance procedure, stating that you are far from happy at the Managements lack of concern and actions, for your welfare.
This will give them another headache to worry about.
Keep in touch Squidgearooney.
If I can help in any way, let me know.
Johnaw:

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

As a follow up, you also stated quote;
but it was suggested by store management to my union rep that the best I can expect from this is a final written warning. For them to indicate this prior to the investigation would to me suggest that they have made their mind up already and that the investigation is simply a matter of following procedure.
If that is what was said mate, they certainly have not followed procedure.
There is no written procedure that I know off, that presumes a premeditated assumption of guilt.
If you're not happy with stage one outcome, then start the appeal procedure.
It can drag on for a while. But at least you are still getting paid while going through all the required steps.

[righty]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

with regards to the above discussed 'conspiracy theory', while I appreciate your opinion Annie-777 I am absolutely certain that this was not a set up of any means and is simply an incident between myself and this male that has now fallen for the company to deal with.

At the very least it could be an attempt by the attackers to obtain 'compensation' for their alleged 'suffering':tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Johnboy007]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

At the very least it could be an attempt by the attackers to obtain 'compensation' for their alleged 'suffering':tinysmile_twink_t2:

You could be right there, righty....
No pun intended..lol

[squidgearooney]

Re: Dismissal after being assaulted at work

JohnBoy,

thank you very much for the time and effort you put into your posts regarding this situation, very much appreciated.

The investigation meeting took place today. My union rep has no proof that the statement referring to the decision to move to disciplinary procedures has already been made so unfortunately I cannot take that route.

However, I did pick them up on a few things throughout the meeting and I will detail them for you all with more information later (sorry but I have just had 4 hours of investigation meeting and my head is a little bashed to say the least and the medication for my injuries isn't helping).

I promise I will update you all shortly on what was and wasn't said/done in the investigation meeting.

Thanks everyone