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My question about unfair dismissal

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  • My question about unfair dismissal

    Wednesday dec 4 at 11am call in office by the transport manager and I was told that a was going to get a verbal warning about a burn hole in the seat of a company vehicle and leaving it in a mess.
    I was also accused of smoking in the van,
    Did not respond I accepted the verbal Warning and signed it.

    Bottom of verbal warning which the transport manager and I signed.

    Please ensure that the colleague is aware of the following:

    You have decided not to proceed will! Formal disciplinary action on this occasion, however, this informal Verbal Warning is to be treated as confirmation that you have discussed your concerns with them and that they are expected to make every effort to address the shortcomings that have been identified,
    • It is not intended to be a formal warr1ing; however, it will be kept on their personnel file and thus takes the form of what a reasonable written management instruction,
    • Should there be any repeat of this conduct, or indeed any misconduct In general they may be subject to formal disciplinary action.


    Thursday dec 5 10.30 signed in
    Work college says thought you was sacked
    I replied sorry? He said everybody is talking about it.

    Went to see the transport manager and ask him if I was sacked
    He replied I sent verbal Warning to HR they did not a accept it.
    He said that he has to do an investigation.

    Friday 6 December 17.30 was called into office
    By the transport manager
    Was informed that this was an investigation meeting
    Was asked a few questions I replied took about 10 min
    I read it and made any corrections and signed it.

    At that moment I was given a letter accusing me of smoking in a company vehicle( gross misconduct ) andrequiring me to attend a disciplinary meeting On Monday the 9th of December and it would be chaired by the operation manager.

    It clearly states accused of smoking in a company vehicle and no more.


    And that I was suspended from work as from now.
    No documents of any kind given with letter

    To me with the fact that my work mates was already talking about the fact that I was sacked seems that the management had already made up their mind about the outcome of the disciplinary meeting

    Monday 9 December 08.30 handed a letter to operation manager explaining that I was unable to attend the disciplinary hearing held today at 13.00
    due to the fact there is no investigation or witness documents.

    Phoned HR at this point to inform them and that I need to see any doc that may be available regarding the hearing, And that I needed a few days to read the docs and make a appointment with cab if need be.

    Tuesday 10th 9.30 received docs .
    the operation manager had taken a statement from the transport manager at 09.00 on the 9th 30 min’s after I requested written evidence.
    I read the statement and the disciplinary policy and realized that the operation manager was running the meeting ,

    12.00 I call HR to inform them that due to the fact that the operation manager was now part of the investigating team and under 2.2.6 or their disciplinary policy that the operation manager could not now chair the meeting.

    15.00 a call from HR saying that operation manager (from different depot) is now chairing the meeting,

    12th December attended disciplinary meeting.
    Stated my case and won the case of smoking in van.

    Now i was told the meeting had changed and I was told it is now about the burn hole in seat.

    Can they do that?
    Thought this meeting was about smoking in the van.

    Ask me if I wanted to carry on I replied might as well
    I was dismissed for misconduct for accidentally burning hole in seat.

    Have been with company 2 ˝ years with no problems until nov this year
    I must point out that a have a first and final written warning for a health and safety issue on the 1st of nov (the trailer that I was towing turned over.)

    Now the fact that they moved the goal post to the hole in the seat
    after I was found not to have smoked in the vehicle confirms
    that they indeed don’t want me to work there anymore.

    My question is the way they handled the meeting (moving the goalpost) would you say that it was unfair dismissal
    Don't let them grind you down
    Tags: my question

  • #2
    Re: My question about unfair dismissal

    Hi Vanman and to Legal Beagles.

    One of the clued-up employment law beagles will soon be along.

    FWIW, this does sound most unfair to me - but whether it is also unfair in law others will be able to clarify.

    Good luck, anyway x

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: My question about unfair dismissal

      Originally posted by vanman View Post
      Now the fact that they moved the goal post to the hole in the seat
      after I was found not to have smoked in the vehicle confirms
      that they indeed don’t want me to work there any more.

      My question is the way they handled the meeting (moving the goalpost) would you say that it was unfair dismissal
      It was utterly unfair and totally illogical - it makes not one atom of sense, other than a predetermined outcome of sacking you for one "reason" or another.
      Exactly how were you supposed to have burned a hole in the seat - from farting having eaten a very hot curry? :grin:

      Is the company trying to downsize?

      Or do the alleged managers just dislike the fact that a mere minion knows their disciplinary code rather better than they do?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: My question about unfair dismissal

        Originally posted by CleverClogs View Post
        Exactly how were you supposed to have burned a hole in the seat - from farting having eaten a very hot curry? :grin:
        thanks for the reply.

        After pulling into a lay by to smoke a cigarette outside of the vehicle

        I turned around I could see that the load that I was carrying was not 100% secure.
        I lent into the cab of the vehicle to get my gloves forgetting I had the cigarette in my left hand.




        I put my hand on the seat and by doing so I may have burnt :flame:a hole in the seat.
        Don't let them grind you down

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: My question about unfair dismissal

          Or someone else may have done previously and it had not been noticed previously.

          Of course, you should have dropped the cigarette on the road, but if they accepted your account, that effectively means they sacked you for accidental (and rather trivial) damage caused while you were attending to a potentially unsafe load.

          Can you name the company involved?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: My question about unfair dismissal

            Originally posted by CleverClogs View Post

            Can you name the company involved?
            i have no problem with naming the company .
            but i would rather not at this moment it time as this is an open forum :ranger:
            someone from the company could read my post :spy: and any advice that i may receive
            i may lose an advantage.
            Don't let them grind you down

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: My question about unfair dismissal

              Hi vanman,

              Have you received formal (written) notice yet?

              If so, what reason(s) are given for dismissal.

              Have you appealed? (check the company procedure for time limits).

              Were you given written notification of your right to have a colleague or union rep present at the meeting?
              It seems to me from the info in your post that even if you had, there would not have been enough time for you to arrange this anyway.

              It would also be an idea to submit a grievance on the issues; usually, different managers have to deal with the grievance, & same re the appeal.

              Also, this exhausts the available company procedures, which is expected by an Employment Tribunal.
              CAVEAT LECTOR

              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
              Cohen, Herb


              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
              gets his brain a-going.
              Phelps, C. C.


              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
              The last words of John Sedgwick

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                hi thanks for replying.

                Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                Hi vanman,

                Have you received formal (written) notice yet
                not yet

                Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                Have you appealed? (check the company procedure for time limits).
                not yet i intend to to i have 7 days to do so.

                Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                Were you given written notification of your right to have a colleague or union rep present at the meeting?
                It seems to me from the info in your post that even if you had, there would not have been enough time for you to arrange this anyway.
                yes ! but the letter inviting me to the meeting says :tape2:
                you are instructed not to contact or attempt to contact or influence anyone connected with the investigation in any way or to discuss this matter with any other colleague or customer of ours.
                i am duty bound to inform you that a failure to abide by this instruction would be treated as an act of misconduct.


                Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                It would also be an idea to submit a grievance on the issues; usually, different managers have to deal with the grievance, & same re the appeal.
                i believe this is not possible now as they have already dismissed me.
                Don't let them grind you down

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                  Originally posted by vanman View Post
                  the letter inviting me to the meeting says :tape2:
                  you are instructed not to contact or attempt to contact or influence anyone connected with the investigation in any way or to discuss this matter with any other colleague or customer of ours.
                  i am duty bound to inform you that a failure to abide by this instruction would be treated as an act of misconduct.
                  I expect others will comment on that, but I'd like to add my opinion first.

                  Whilst a desire to keep the matter as confidential as possible would normally make sense, it seems to be absurd when there was already a story going round the company that you'd been dismissed. Therefore, someone other than yourself had broken that duty of confidentiality.

                  Secondly, it seems to negate your right to have a colleague or union representative at the kangaroo court - and a kangaroo court (link) is just what it was, as they'd already decided on the outcome and just wanted some rationalisation to excuse or "justify" it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                    Yes it is unfair dismissal. They where investigating you for smoking in the vehicle and found that you were innocent of such, they then dismissed you for accidental damage which is not a sackable offense or something you can be disciplined for unless it was a result of an act of negligence i.e. you were not trained to use machinery and had accident etc. They have basically sacked you for something that was not even what you were accused of or investigated for.

                    Also you stated they first gave you a verbal then stated you already had a Final written warning which i assume was from this year. You say the final written was on health and safety breaches, but stated that it was due to trailer overturning. Can you elaborate as to the cause of the trailer overturning or was that also purely an accident and not due to breaches of health and safety or any legislation/regulations governing your sector, which i assume is haulage.

                    You may also have a claim for breach of Data Protection Act against the employer given that they had already told others you were sacked, therefore meaning it is evident that they had already predetermined the outcome of your disciplinary - Also unfair dismissal as disciplinary and investigations must be unbiased and not predetermined in advance.
                    Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (LB),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

                    By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

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                    I AM SO GOING TO GET BANNED BY CEL FOR POSTING terrible humour POSTS.

                    The Governess; 6th March 2012 GRRRRRR

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                      Originally posted by vanman View Post
                      thanks for the reply.

                      After pulling into a lay by to smoke a cigarette outside of the vehicle

                      I turned around I could see that the load that I was carrying was not 100% secure.
                      I lent into the cab of the vehicle to get my gloves forgetting I had the cigarette in my left hand.




                      I put my hand on the seat and by doing so I may have burnt :flame:a hole in the seat.
                      Tell them that and you've sunk your own boat......have you said that to anyone at work??

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                        Originally posted by teaboy2 View Post

                        Also you stated they first gave you a verbal

                        yes that right i was given the verbal first it was sent to HR who said that it needed an investigation.

                        then when i received letter to inform me of meeting It clearly states accused of smoking in a company vehicle and no more.
                        i took that to mean they had accepted
                        the verbal for the hole and mess


                        Originally posted by teaboy2 View Post
                        then stated you already had a Final written warning which i assume was from this year. You say the final written was on health and safety breaches, but stated that it was due to trailer overturning. Can you elaborate as to the cause of the trailer overturning
                        yes it was an accident the trailer was not a standard type




                        the wheels on the trailer need extending for towing
                        which i was unaware of as i was going around a corner at 10mph the trailer became unstable and turn on its side.





                        that disciplinary meeting was a hole new ball game.
                        no letter to attend a disciplinary meeting /no No documents of any kind

                        was told about meeting 24hours before meeting by OPs manager he told me your not going to get the sack don't worry.
                        Don't let them grind you down

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                          Originally posted by Inca View Post
                          Tell them that and you've sunk your own boat......have you said that to anyone at work??
                          how so by doing so I may have burnt :flame:a hole in the seat.
                          not that i had
                          Don't let them grind you down

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                            Originally posted by vanman View Post
                            yes it was an accident the trailer was not a standard type

                            the wheels on the trailer need extending for towing
                            which i was unaware of as i was going around a corner at 10mph the trailer became unstable and turned on its side.
                            Even though that lift platform has a fairly narrow track with the wheels not extended, it is difficult to understand quite how it might tip beyond 45o when negotiating a corner at only 10mph. Was there some defect in the bearings or was the road uneven or sloping?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: My question about unfair dismissal

                              Originally posted by vanman View Post
                              how so by doing so I may have burnt :flame:a hole in the seat.
                              not that i had
                              If the van seats burn so readily, are they really safe?

                              Comment

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