redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I cant find anything in my terms and conditions or the company handbook referring to notice of meetings.

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

Another issue i have is i was told i`d be kept informed of the company's attempts at finding me alternative employment before the date they had given for my job to become redundant (31/05/13), i was told i would receive weekly vacancy listings etc but have received nothing at all from the company.

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

Did you ask where they were?

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I haven't as of yet Eloise, i was expecting something in the post today but have had nothing.

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

Probably the obvious statement, but you should ask.

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I know i should of done Eloise, to be honest this whole situation is making me physically sick, im a worrier by nature and its really getting to me, just when life was falling into place as well

I really don't know what to do or say tomorrow to be honest, iv written out a list of questions to ask and points to raise etc but to be honest i don't know if what im asking or challenging is just, im beginning to wish id just accepted the redundancy and moved on, but im sick of feeling walked over by my employer and wanted to make a stand for myself, as i feel the way they have gone about this is truly unfair.

I really do appreciate your advice Eloise.

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

That's ok - a lot of people feel this way. It's hard not to take things personally.

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I have decided to get the help of a solicitor on this matter now as more and more things im unhappy about keep cropping up. I spoke to the solicitor on the morning of the proposed hearing and was told to contact the HR manager and get them to rescedule, i had had no proper notice in writing of the hearing and my rights had not been expressed to me ie the right to have a companion present etc.
Iv also recently found out and have proof that several other electricians are booking and being paid vast amounts of overtime! infact enough to cover my months wages alone between 1 persons bookings and a half of anothers, if i was made redundant due to lack of work how can this be justified?.
Iv also discovered on the scoring matrix sheets i have been given that the scoring was done even before the first at risk letters were sent out, they have been dated a day before the letter, seeing we had no warning prior to the at risk letter suelry this is prejudgment?.
Also the scoring seems to have been done in a very subjective manor, i will be asking for actual proof of how the scores were concluded and the calibration method used to make sure they were fair.

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I have decided to get the help of a solicitor on this matter now as more and more things im unhappy about keep cropping up. I spoke to the solicitor on the morning of the proposed hearing and was told to contact the HR manager and get them to rescedule, i had had no proper notice in writing of the hearing and my rights had not been expressed to me ie the right to have a companion present etc. Your right is to an appeal. It is your responsibility to know about your right to be accompanied, not the employers responsibility to tell you that.

Iv also recently found out and have proof that several other electricians are booking and being paid vast amounts of overtime! infact enough to cover my months wages alone between 1 persons bookings and a half of anothers, if i was made redundant due to lack of work how can this be justified?. You are failing to appreciate that overtime worked by others does not mean that your position is not redundant. Overtime can be explanded and contracted as required - it is not a regular wage going out each and every week whether there is the work to sustain it or not.

Iv also discovered on the scoring matrix sheets i have been given that the scoring was done even before the first at risk letters were sent out, they have been dated a day before the letter, seeing we had no warning prior to the at risk letter suelry this is prejudgment?. This is a minor procedural error, and not even a clear cut one. Employers always "pre-judge" - if they have decided on making redundancies then that in itself is a pre-judgement. The important thing is whether the scoring itself can be shown to be unfair, not when it was done.

Also the scoring seems to have been done in a very subjective manor, i will be asking for actual proof of how the scores were concluded and the calibration method used to make sure they were fair.

I rather fear that what you call subjective and what the law does are different. Redundancy scores are always a "matter of opinion" in many ways, but legally that doesn't make them subjective. You cannot always put these to proof - if the scores were arrived at in the same manner for everyone then that would, in the eyes of the law, be adequate.

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I rather fear that what you call subjective and what the law does are different. Redundancy scores are always a "matter of opinion" in many ways, but legally that doesn't make them subjective. You cannot always put these to proof - if the scores were arrived at in the same manner for everyone then that would, in the eyes of the law, be adequate.

This is the thing, i feel the score`s were not arrived at in the same manner due to the amount of favoritism that exists in the company, i feel that due to the fact i do not have xmas dinner etc with the supervisors and am not part of a particular group that all live in the same town has hindered my scores and also my progress in the company, granted it would be very hard to prove all this but i still raised this issue at my appeal hearing which i had this monday.
One of the sections was punctuality, i was marked low saying has arrived work late or left work early more than once in the last 12 months, they do not know this, i am a mobile engineer, i have no tracker on my van and for what its worth i always am at my first job ready to go 10 minutes or so before 8am, my contracted start time, i very rarely finish work before 4.45pm when my contracted finish time is 4.30pm, surely they have to prove these apparent times i have supposedly been late?. The scores i have been awarded are ludicrous, and clearly incorrect and unfair, they knew who they wanted to get rid of when it was said by head office that there were to be redundancies.
They have accepted my consultation process was all wrong and unfair, they have offered me 30 days pay, i have declined saying i feel it is inadequate to remedy the defective procedure.
There were many points to my appeal that i raised in the hearing that i feel i was fobbed off with silly and unfair answers, i asked why they have still got subcontract labor working for them and have had since the beginning of the process, i was told "well its more economical".
I am waiting for there response to my decline of there offer but i am going to submit an application to a tribunal for unfair dismissal, there are people that should have been scored alot lower than me in this process, i know it and they know it.

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I'm afraid that law I have to agree with the employer about sub contractors. They are right, and they are cheaper. That's a valid legal argument.

But otherwise, can I ask you to go back to those links I provided, stop being angry and THINK! What you feel - FEEL - isn't evidence. What can you PROVE? You say you can prove they have no time recording system so they wouldn't know if you are on time or not. THAT is an argument. The fact is that a tribunal will not listen to arguments about scores unless you can provide them with substantive reason to do so. And I'm sorry, but what you feel, and what is "clearly" unfair to you will not do the job.

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

I'm afraid that law I have to agree with the employer about sub contractors. They are right, and they are cheaper. That's a valid legal argument.

But otherwise, can I ask you to go back to those links I provided, stop being angry and THINK! What you feel - FEEL - isn't evidence. What can you PROVE? You say you can prove they have no time recording system so they wouldn't know if you are on time or not. THAT is an argument. The fact is that a tribunal will not listen to arguments about scores unless you can provide them with substantive reason to do so. And I'm sorry, but what you feel, and what is "clearly" unfair to you will not do the job.

Hi Eloise, your advice led me to just accept the redundancy as i was indeed very angry about it all, when i took time to sit back and think about it i decided to just drop it. I do have one further question for you if possible please , my last day of notice was extended to 7th july, yesterday, i have learnt that one of the electricians in the same redundancy pool as me has handed his notice in (last week), as i was the only electrician made redundant (there was to be only one from the pool of electricians) would this then out-do the "need" for redundancy?, i was still in my months notice period when his notice was handed in, also an air con engineer selected for redundancy from the pool of air con engineers was re-instated after one of the other air con engineers handed his notice in, should the same apply to me? would it be unfair if i was not offered this option?

many thanks again Eloise for helping me see things in a better light with previous advice.

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

It might well be unfair, yes - but this is another one of those ones where you need to ask the employer the question. They may, for example, have decided to use the opportunity to cut two positions - one redundant and one resigned. That would be fair. But replacing him with a new employee - now that wouldn't be.

I know it feels horrible and personal and so on - and it won't help to know that the majority of people, rightly or wrongly, feel the same way. If there are grounds, then by all means take legal action where you can. But don't let it eat you up. Otherwise you are the loser. Maybe this is the kick up the pants to consider your options. Around where I live getting decent electricians who don't charge an arm and a leg and a small mortgage are rare. What about your own business? Or contracting yourself - ok, you have to be disciplined about it but the pay can be much better and if you box wise putting money aside for sickness or holidays... Wouldn't be the first time I've heard someone look back and say it was the best thing that could have happened.

[ILW]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

It might well be unfair, yes - but this is another one of those ones where you need to ask the employer the question. They may, for example, have decided to use the opportunity to cut two positions - one redundant and one resigned. That would be fair. But replacing him with a new employee - now that wouldn't be.

I know it feels horrible and personal and so on - and it won't help to know that the majority of people, rightly or wrongly, feel the same way. If there are grounds, then by all means take legal action where you can. But don't let it eat you up. Otherwise you are the loser. Maybe this is the kick up the pants to consider your options. Around where I live getting decent electricians who don't charge an arm and a leg and a small mortgage are rare. What about your own business? Or contracting yourself - ok, you have to be disciplined about it but the pay can be much better and if you box wise putting money aside for sickness or holidays... Wouldn't be the first time I've heard someone look back and say it was the best thing that could have happened.

Ill ask the question maybe and see what the response is. I was going to start up by myself and am still thinking of doing so, iv been asked by several of my old customers if i can take there work on as id be cheaper etc, i have in my contract restrictions against me soliciting with ex customers so im not sure were i stand on that, that is were the money is for me as its what i do, i have made up a business pack with card flyers etc etc, looks very processional, and i was going to hit my ex customers but after finding this in the company handbook im not sure if its to much of a risk to do so?

[Eloise01]

Re: redundancy issues, do i go for unfair dismisal

If you found it in the company handbook - then it is unenforceable. A restrictive covenant must be signed. End of. Even then it is often not enforceable but that is moot - if you didn't sign it then it doesn't bind you. You may do whatever you wish.