Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

[GersGirl]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

I work for npower. I went on the sick end of October for stress, I lost my mam in November and my stress turned to severe depression. Whole off work I met 2 managers once a fortnight in my local library as I could not drive. I had a phone call every week and everything was documented and I had to sign it. I returned to work in Dec as I felt that I was going to be in trouble if I didn't. Since then my depression has got worse and I was crying everyday in work, and worrying all the time about not hitting my targets. There was a lot of changes in both teams and working practices and also a new computer system, I struggled really bad. 3 weeks ago I had a breakdown on the Thursday night and wanted to commit suicide, I called in sick on the Friday morning and advised I had an appointment with my doctor. My doctor put me on new tablets but I was scared to go on the sick and I returned to work on the Monday. I had to come home, the new tablets were making me high, I felt sick, dizzy, and paranoid. I went straight to my doctor, who put me on the sick for 2 weeks. I had a welfare meeting on the Tuesday 9th when I took my sick note in, I then had a welfare call on the Friday 12th. I had a call the following Mon 15th, Wed 17th and another welfare meeting on the Friday 19th when I took in a second sick note this time for 4 weeks. My Ops manager advised that if I wanted to go in and just do a few hours he would be happy for me to do so. My manager asked if I was ok to make an appointment while I was on the sick with the Occupational health nurse, ( I had already made one myself but was on the sick so had to cancel it.) I agreed. I got a call from my manager today, to say that I have an appointment for the 21st April, time that I already had booked in as holidays, as it should have been my mams 70th birthday on the 18th and its going to be a very hard time me and my family. She also advised that I will be only paid half wages as from 9th April, and I have another welfare meeting on Tuesday 7th. The doctor has changed my tablets and doubled the dose to get me stable and I had not cried for 3 days which is the best i have been in a long time, but since she rang tonight I feel like I have fallen back into a black hole.

[Eloise01]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

I am struggling to know what you are asking - largely because you haven't asked anything! - and the timeline isn't making sense to me because I can't understand why your manager has asked you to an appointment with OH on 21st April, which is in the past! As is 9th April!

But there doesn't seem to be anything untoward here. I appreciate that you are struggling with your health, but your employer isn't going to sit back and wait. Your entitlement to sick pay is what it is - if you have exhausted full pay then you will get whatever the company policy is, in this case half pay, for as long as that lasts. Whilst off sick you are required to keep in touch - your managers are checking on your state of health and are maintaining records of having done so, as well as sending you to OH, because eventually they will have to make a decision as to the likelihood of your being fit to return to work. I realise that this isn't what you want to hear, but eventually your employers are likely to dismiss if they can see no prospect of your returning to work. That is what most employers would do. But what you need to realise is that this isn't personal, and it isn't being done to make you feel worse. If you are sick, then you are sick - there is no getting around that and your employers know that as well as you do. They are doing what they are because that is what they must do - they will have policies that tell them what they must do if someone is off sick, and the law requires certain standards from them too. Your focus, therefore, needs to be on being co-operative with your employer, which you obviously are doing, and getting better. In the end the employer will do what they will do, according to their policy - there is no point worrying about it or dwelling on it because that won't help you get any better. And it won't change anything either. Look after yourself first and deal with everything else as and when you must.

[edj1977]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

Hi guys. New here, but I'll tell you all what's happening in my situation.

My partner works for a government back-to-work programme, and it is a programme which the contracted company can neither afford, nor have enough staff in order to operate successfully.

The company she works for has a suggested caseload of between 60-80 people per adviser. As an adviser, her caseload is currently 230+ (!!!!). As you can understand, it is almost impossible to manage a caseload which is three times the suggested level. As a result, mistakes were made, and she was subjected to an investigation back in February, which was followed by disciplinary action. Fortunately, here Union Representative managed to quash all the accusations due to the unmanageable nature of the caseload, and a development plan was put in place. However, since then, my partner has been on sick leave since then with stress and anxiety.

In the last few weeks, the local management have been writing to my partner (while she is still on the sick) informing her that they have found errors with another one of her files, and are trying to pull her in for an investigation with possible subsequent disciplinary action (whilst on the sick). When she refused as she was on the sick, they wrote again and stated that they have checked the date her current sick paper ends, and have booked in the investigatory meeting for her first day back at work. Ths has resulted in her getting another sick paper, and they were quick to write to her AGAIN to inform her they have move the investigation meeting to the end date on this new sick paper.

This has made her health condition worse, and three months of recovery have been thrown out the window, as she is now back to square one. We have put in an official grievance to the area manager (copies to HR dept and her union representative). For the record, she is also now on half pay, which means she is also at a financial detriment due to the actions of the company.

The union rep has told us that what the management are doing is highly illegal and the company could seriously be in trouble over this, and we could even put in a claim for the lost earnings.

You guys seem to have experience in these matters, so a little bit of moral support would go a long way for me personally - I am trying my best to appease my partner's concerns, but it's making me go crazy.

[Eloise01]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

I am afraid that legally the employer is in the right - the union has more chance of coming to some agreement than she has under the law. A fit note does not mean that someone cannot attend an investigatory or disciplinary meeting unless the GP has specifically said so. It is advice to refrain from normal work, and investigations or disciplinaries are not normal work.

Her rate of sick pay is related to the length of time she has had off sick and nothing else.

I am sorry to inform you that in this matter your union rep is an idiot - there is nothing "highly illegal" about any of this. If s/he is referring to a claim for personal injury, such claims in relation to work related stress are exceptional. And the conduct of the employer, whilst I agree it is unreasonable in a personal capacity, in law it is entirely lawful. The first disciplinary demonstrates that "the system worked" - she was accused of something and management accepted her explanation and put a non-disciplinary outcome in place. Further investigations have arisen, and despite not having to do so without a specific advisory from the GP, they have postponed all actions until she returns to work. That is not at all unlawful.

Bluster in a union rep is an admirable quality when used effectively - but it should not involve misleading members as to their chances or legal position. That is irresponsible.

[edj1977]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

I am afraid that legally the employer is in the right - the union has more chance of coming to some agreement than she has under the law. A fit note does not mean that someone cannot attend an investigatory or disciplinary meeting unless the GP has specifically said so. It is advice to refrain from normal work, and investigations or disciplinaries are not normal work.

Her rate of sick pay is related to the length of time she has had off sick and nothing else.

I am sorry to inform you that in this matter your union rep is an idiot - there is nothing "highly illegal" about any of this. If s/he is referring to a claim for personal injury, such claims in relation to work related stress are exceptional. And the conduct of the employer, whilst I agree it is unreasonable in a personal capacity, in law it is entirely lawful. The first disciplinary demonstrates that "the system worked" - she was accused of something and management accepted her explanation and put a non-disciplinary outcome in place. Further investigations have arisen, and despite not having to do so without a specific advisory from the GP, they have postponed all actions until she returns to work. That is not at all unlawful.

Bluster in a union rep is an admirable quality when used effectively - but it should not involve misleading members as to their chances or legal position. That is irresponsible.

I see. So, in your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for a company to exacerbate a person's work related stress condition by informing them that they are under investigation with the possibility of disciplinary action? Plus, the matter WOULD have been dealt with if the agreed development plan had been put into place, but it wasn't because the person has been on the sick since then.

My partner was all set to return to work, and informed the manager of this. It was at this point that they decided to inform her of the investigatory action. Hence, her stress levels went through the roof and was back to square one.

In your opinion, the company have done nothing wrong and have acted impeccably by threatening a person on sick leave, yes?

EDIT - oh, and it's also acceptable to inform someone that, while they are on the sick with work related stress, their first duty back at work will be to attend an investigation? The results of the investigation are already evident - "mistakes were made because our workloads have now spiralled out of control and we don't have the money or staff to manage". No; much better to blame someone else's "incompetency" rather than report to the hierarchy with the truth...........

[edj1977]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

How can you focus on "getting better" and "looking after yourself first" when your employer is in constant contact and threatening you with investigatory/disciplinary action, particularly when a GP has identified that your illness is due to the actions of your company in the first place?

[leclerc]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

I see. So, in your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for a company to exacerbate a person's work related stress condition by informing them that they are under investigation with the possibility of disciplinary action? Plus, the matter WOULD have been dealt with if the agreed development plan had been put into place, but it wasn't because the person has been on the sick since then.

My partner was all set to return to work, and informed the manager of this. It was at this point that they decided to inform her of the investigatory action. Hence, her stress levels went through the roof and was back to square one.

In your opinion, the company have done nothing wrong and have acted impeccably by threatening a person on sick leave, yes?

EDIT - oh, and it's also acceptable to inform someone that, while they are on the sick with work related stress, their first duty back at work will be to attend an investigation? The results of the investigation are already evident - "mistakes were made because our workloads have now spiralled out of control and we don't have the money or staff to manage". No; much better to blame someone else's "incompetency" rather than report to the hierarchy with the truth...........

If you look at Eloise's post then you will see that her personal opinion is that it is unreasonable but the legal standpoint is that the company are doing nothing wrong, ie they have found something that requires a disciplinary in a healthy worker and have started the process but due to the fact that your OH is off work sick then that process cannot commence until she returns from work and that is what the employer is doing, ie receipt of sick note and return date will be meeting and that will continue. I know you asked for moral support but Eloise has given you the legal standpoint and that is the most important bit.

Remember, if the first lot of disciplinary was dismissed due to the extenuating circumstances, what makes you think that yet again, there is no case to answer with good Union representation?

As for your EDIT: it was asked and answered already. Yes, LEGALLY it is acceptable to attend a meeting on the first day back. Until she is back she cannot defend the allegations on the basis of excessive workload until she is back at work.

You can ask the question a thousand times but in this case the LEGAL answer and not the moral one, is clear. Morally I am sure we would all sympathise with the case but that will not help you prepare for the meeting which if it relates to the same issue then maybe you will get the same result.

[edj1977]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

If you look at Eloise's post then you will see that her personal opinion is that it is unreasonable but the legal standpoint is that the company are doing nothing wrong, ie they have found something that requires a disciplinary in a healthy worker and have started the process but due to the fact that your OH is off work sick then that process cannot commence until she returns from work and that is what the employer is doing, ie receipt of sick note and return date will be meeting and that will continue. I know you asked for moral support but Eloise has given you the legal standpoint and that is the most important bit.

Remember, if the first lot of disciplinary was dismissed due to the extenuating circumstances, what makes you think that yet again, there is no case to answer with good Union representation?

As for your EDIT: it was asked and answered already. Yes, LEGALLY it is acceptable to attend a meeting on the first day back. Until she is back she cannot defend the allegations on the basis of excessive workload until she is back at work.

You can ask the question a thousand times but in this case the LEGAL answer and not the moral one, is clear. Morally I am sure we would all sympathise with the case but that will not help you prepare for the meeting which if it relates to the same issue then maybe you will get the same result.

The only reason I came on here was to give a basic idea of what's going on.

The company's local management have a history of apportioning blame, asking far too much of its employees, have lost confidential employee files during TUPE transfer, breaking data protection rules, providing staff training via word-of-mouth and belittling staff members in front of colleagues and customers.

The company is trying to force a contract to be a success which (a) has unrealistic targets, (b) they are unable to afford and (c) they are too understaffed to run. Local management are under so much pressure from their peers, and they from their peers, etc. in order to make it work at all costs (but without hiring any more staff or spending money), and the buck is stopping at the feet of the ground level staff.

After advice from union representatives, shop stewards and other managers, we are confident the case will be dismissed for the same reason, but (from a personal point of view) it is a travesty that my partner's health has dwindled due to their actions after her recovery was going so well. They are asking her when she is planning to return to work (and have even told her that her absence is affecting the rest of the staff), and this is something they cannot do. From the content of the letters we have received, it is also evident that they are putting the onus on tryng to make someone look responsible for errors that are as a result of unfeasible workload, and have disregarded the health and recovery of the employee in question.

I wish you all knew the full story and then you would fully appreciate the matter. But, as you don't, then it's only right that you're going to give answers based on what I've told you.

In a nutshell, though, the company are more-or-less doing to my partner exactly what they are doing to the person who started this thread. They have stated in no uncertain terms that they cannot proceed with their investigation unless she returns to work, and they also claim they cannot they put a contingency plan in place for her absence unless she confirms when she is returning.

I'd love to tell you more, but it's a LOOOOOOOOOOONG story.

[leclerc]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

The first part of what you have written is not relevant to your OH's issues with the company whatsoever. It may be the cause of her stress and anxiety but each individual will react differently to higher and higher workloads.
They have stated the legal status, ie they cannot proceed with an investigation while she is off work and they cannot put in a contingency plan until she is back at work. That is not anything unlawful in what they are stating.

Where there are people close to you and where it is an emotive issue then clearly you are never going to be neutral in this issue. What the forum can advise on is specifically your legal position and whether in employment law that position is not being adherred to. Eloise has worked in the field of employment law so I would take on board any advice that she gives. You can reply to her on the forum by all means but she is stating the legal position and not her personal opinion which she has already said what she thinks personally.

Keep us updated but remember, whether your OH likes it or not, she will be facing a disciplinary meeting when she is fit to work and that cannot be changed. If the case refers to previous cases and the employer has accepted previous arguments then clearly you should be fine. What the company is doing in law though, is not unlawful.

[edj1977]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

The first part of what you have written is not relevant to your OH's issues with the company whatsoever. It may be the cause of her stress and anxiety but each individual will react differently to higher and higher workloads.
They have stated the legal status, ie they cannot proceed with an investigation while she is off work and they cannot put in a contingency plan until she is back at work. That is not anything unlawful in what they are stating.

Where there are people close to you and where it is an emotive issue then clearly you are never going to be neutral in this issue. What the forum can advise on is specifically your legal position and whether in employment law that position is not being adherred to. Eloise has worked in the field of employment law so I would take on board any advice that she gives. You can reply to her on the forum by all means but she is stating the legal position and not her personal opinion which she has already said what she thinks personally.

Keep us updated but remember, whether your OH likes it or not, she will be facing a disciplinary meeting when she is fit to work and that cannot be changed. If the case refers to previous cases and the employer has accepted previous arguments then clearly you should be fine. What the company is doing in law though, is not unlawful.

Erm, they could've waited until she had recovered fully and returned to work before informing her of their intentions? If they had, then it would've been sorted out by now. We have no problem with the fact that this has to be done - it's their eagerness to pin the blame on her for the mistakes that have been made which have been the problem.

After the last time they tried to do it, they seemed AMAZED by the fact that they couldn't pin any of their issues on her. Now, they're trying to do it again.

Do YOU know what it's like to have someone try and blame you for something that, ultimately, is not your fault.........? It's not a nice feeling, believe me.

The fact of the matter is that a (so called) management structure have impeded my partner's recovery with their actions. And, according to you, there's nothing wrong with that. There is no difference between my case and the one that started this thread, believe me.

I'll just stick to the advice of our union rep and friends/colleagues with experience in this, as they know the full story.

[leclerc]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

Erm, they could've waited until she had recovered fully and returned to work before informing her of their intentions? If they had, then it would've been sorted out by now. We have no problem with the fact that this has to be done - it's their eagerness to pin the blame on her for the mistakes that have been made which have been the problem.

The fact of the matter is that a (so called) management structure have impeded my partner's recovery with their actions. And, according to you, there's nothing wrong with that. There is no difference between my case and the one that started this thread, believe me.

I'll just stick to the advice of our union rep and friends/colleagues with experience in this, as they know the full story.

Legally your union rep is talking crap. The matter is clearly urgent and could potentially lead to suspension from work. There is no way in this world that they can simply creep behind her and shout "surprise!! disciplinary meeting" on her first day of work. I would add that what would happen if they informed her that it was happening 3 days after returning from work? She might be off sick again for stress and anxiety and so the process prolongs itself even further........(and yes that bit does sound harsh)

Here is a different example, someone took money from a till at work and this matter did not come up until they were signed off work sick. The company are investigating this matter and want to talk to the worker. Do they allow a potential thief to continue to work when they may need to suspend them from work on their return? The answer is no.

I would add as well, why would work discriminate between fit workers and workers that are off ill? What you are suggesting is reverse discrimination ie two workers having to face disciplinary yet one gets his meeting on the Monday whilst the other worker who has just returned from sick leave is allowed a few more days because they were ill to get their meeting? That is hardly fair to ALL employees.

I have stated that LEGALLY there is nothing wrong with what they have done. the key word here is LEGALLY and not personally. Had I been told of the various things happening I might have a PERSONAL view that is different from the LEGAL viewpoint. unfortunately, you sometimes have to open your eyes to the phrase "The law's an ass!"

Eloise, will no doubt come back on this thread and as someone who has worked in employment law professionally for some time, she will give you the no frills answer.

[edj1977]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

Legally your union rep is talking crap. The matter is clearly urgent and could potentially lead to suspension from work. There is no way in this world that they can simply creep behind her and shout "surprise!! disciplinary meeting" on her first day of work. I would add that what would happen if they informed her that it was happening 3 days after returning from work? She might be off sick again for stress and anxiety and so the process prolongs itself even further........(and yes that bit does sound harsh)

Here is a different example, someone took money from a till at work and this matter did not come up until they were signed off work sick. The company are investigating this matter and want to talk to the worker. Do they allow a potential thief to continue to work when they may need to suspend them from work on their return? The answer is no.

I would add as well, why would work discriminate between fit workers and workers that are off ill? What you are suggesting is reverse discrimination ie two workers having to face disciplinary yet one gets his meeting on the Monday whilst the other worker who has just returned from sick leave is allowed a few more days because they were ill to get their meeting? That is hardly fair to ALL employees.

I have stated that LEGALLY there is nothing wrong with what they have done. the key word here is LEGALLY and not personally. Had I been told of the various things happening I might have a PERSONAL view that is different from the LEGAL viewpoint. unfortunately, you sometimes have to open your eyes to the phrase "The law's an ass!"

Eloise, will no doubt come back on this thread and as someone who has worked in employment law professionally for some time, she will give you the no frills answer.

No need. It'll take ages for me to give you the whole story, and it appears someone in a very, very similar situation has garnered a little more support than an instantly dismissive response to only a small part of the story.

I can't particularly be bothered to give the full story, and don't really want to stress myself out over it either. The experienced parties we've contacted have all given us the same response and advised us with action to take, and that's what we've done.

So long, folks.

[Eloise01]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

Excuse me for breathing - if you choose to tell only a "little part" of the story then you will get advice based on what you say, and not on what you do not say. I am an employment lawyer, not a clairovoyant. The position I stated to you, and which Leclerc has also spent a great deal of time explaining to you, is the correct position in law based on what you have said on this thread. Obviously this is not the advice you wanted so, here goes the alternative...

This is totally unacceptable. It's highly illegal (despite the fact that in employment law nothing is illegal because that is criminal law - this is civil law and therefore either lawful or unlawful). You should instantly inform the employment tribunals service and start a claim; and also begin a personal injury claim for the audacity of the employer in daring to investigate or discipline a member of staff. You will be in the money, probably £millions, by the time this is over. The entire of this paragraph is patent rubbish (apart from the bit in brackets), but feel free to believe it if it makes you feel better.

The actual fact is that disciplining someone is not unlawful, even IF that disciplinary is not deserved. There is no appeal past the employer for a disciplinary unless the outcome is dismissal. If it is dismissal then it is possible to claim unfair dismissal, but your opinion about how the company is managed will be entirely irrelevant to any such case - the only relevance is the matter of the disciplinary, a reasonable belief that the person did what they are accused of, and whether dismissal is within the range of outcomes which a reasonable employer might consider. Unfair dismissal is actually significantly harder to demonstrate than you (or, apparently, your union rep) think.

That is why I told you that the union is the most effective way of resolving this - they can fight and argue for non-legal outcomes, i.e. they can stop or overturn disciplinary actions, or reach settlements which are not based on the admission of fault on either side.

And I can't particularly be bothered to write anything more since you can't be bothered to tell people the true and entire story on which to base advice that you asked for - and got.

[Eloise01]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

PS - Leclerc - your advice may not have been liked (welcome to the club) but well done. Really excellent and accurate advice. First class.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Harassed by Managers whilst of work sick (NPower)

Excuse me for breathing

You are forgiven.