Dismissal and civil claim

[Pacific]

Long story short my son whom is under 18 and in full time college got a weekend job at a big well known franchise store. He very out of character used a customers credit note, this wasn't some criminal mastermind at work but a small amount spent foolishly and he got caught. He fully admitted it straight away and apologised and offered to pay back everything immediately. The investigator said he decided not to call the police but that he would be dismissed or retrained.

He was called in a few days later by a manager and dismissed for fraud and gross misconduct. He was told he would be contacted by the investigator to return anything else and costs. He was eager to pay it all off and put this behind him. A week later he receives a letter from a civil claim demanding payment or court action, this has shocked and distressed him because he has no idea why they did this when he has already offered to pay it all back and was waiting for them to contact him. Now we don't know if they'll call police because although they didn't they can't be trusted to do what they say.

I know what he did was wrong and that he was lucky they didn't call the police, so does he and he has been punished already so the question here isn't about his guilt but about how the store handled this. How do we move forward, will this affect his future credit score? Can I ask the employers to withdraw so he can pay the costs as arranged previously? Will this be marked on his record anywhere.

Also he has finally come clean to me to why he did this, it's very out of character for him and its due to pressures and treatment at work which I will ask about later, right now I'm very concerned about all of this and how it impacts him.

[ULA]

Not sure if this is related to your thread about CCTV?

From an employment perspective how long was your son employed at the store?

When you say your son has received a civil claim demand can you be a little more specific as to what this is? A letter from a company or a solicitor?

I am going to tag des8 to this thread since my area of expertise is employment and it has gone beyond that if you are getting demands.

[des8]

Presumably the civil recovery firm are demanding payment well in excess of the value of the goods involved.

If they should ever take it to court all they would be awarded is the value of the goods.
If they are claiming the costs of investigating the incident they need to break them down, as the staff costs involved cannot be claimed (staff will be paid for doing their job whether or not it involved this incident)

The chances of the police being called now are vanishingly small.
Nothing should be entered on his credit record

A cheque could be sent directly to his ex employers for the value of the goods, confirming that this was what he arranged to repay.
Apologise for his behaviour.

Ignore the uncivil recovery firm unless by chance they send a letter headed "Letter before Claim".

That is what I would be doing

[Pacific]

Thanks..

It's a letter headed civil recovery. He was employed for 3 months which was ongoing and was renewed. He was in the middle of the 2nd 3 month period when it happened.

He was shaken and crying when he returned home early, what happened is he printed a customer a credit note but it didn't come out, he pressed the reprint button and 2 came out, he gave 1 to the customer but then stupidly decided to see if the other worked, he went and picked up an item he didn't need and took it to the till and saw that the note worked. He put the item back in the store, paid for it with the credit note but he didn't take it.

He then called his friend and asked what he wanted because it was his birthday soon, he had already gotten this friend a present and had his own money to buy him anything else so didn't need to do that, he went around the store he worked in buying things for his friend, he purchased some items his friend said he could use and spent approx half the credit note, he met up with his friend after work and gave them to him. He next day realised what he did was wrong and panicked and threw the remaining credit note in the bin at work.

It was flagged up when the customer complained and a week later he was taken to the store's fraud investigator whom told him they have him on cctv and my son never denied anything admitted everything and apologised, he was suspended and told police would not be called as the amount was small, but that the investigation would go to stage 2 and he will either be dismissed and would have to pay the cost of the full value of the credit note which they had to reissue the customer and the cost of the investigation, or he would be retrained in which case he would have to pay back nothing. He next day sent them an apology letter offering to pay back what he took regardless of the outcome. A week later he was called back in to be told by another manager that he was dismissed and that the investigator would contact him regarding anything further he had to return including costs.

A few days later the civil recovery letter. The amount of the credit note was approx £66, the amount he spent was approx £36 not including the £5 item he first bought to "test" the note but didn't take, the amount they're asking is approx £186.

He did receive an official dismissal letter just before the recovery note which stated he contact them within a week to return anything like uniform, but he didn't because he thought it was a generic letter and waited instead to be contacted about that like he was asked to do by the dismissal manager so we're not sure if the costs demanded include the uniform or the investigation or both.

I've since written to them asking for itemised billing and why they forwarded this to credit services etc, and they've responded saying they've paused the credit recovery while they "review" the case. This is actually more worrying because now I don't know if they might decide to call the police out of spite. Really worried for my son.

[des8]

Most unlikely they will involve the police. The amount is small and as he has admitted the incident and offered to pay their costs the police would not want to waste their time anyway.
If perchance they do and he is invited by the police to a "voluntary" interview, he should only attend with a solicitor in tow.
If he doesn't have his own, ask for the duty solicitor. This is free and is his right.
Never attend police station for interviews without legal assistance.

The uniform should be returned.

All they are entitled to is the wholesale price of the items he "purchased" with the credit note.

Legally they can only recover their losses directly arising from the incident.
So they are not entitled to the profit on those items, and the costs of the investigation need to be broken down and itemised.
The investigator and other staff were doing their job and are paid anyway, so none of their pay can be charged

You may have heard of the "oxford case", where two admitted shoplifters were taken to court in an attempt to recover such dreamt up costs.
The retailer lost and was roundly slated by the judge.
If you are interested: https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...h-and-the-lies

[Pacific]

DES8 thanks for the link and I will keep in mind the solicitor if they call police.

The fraud investigator has responded, he didn't answer my questions about how long they keep cctv and such and said things which never happened like giving my son a case folder and letter and discussing Civil Recovery with him etc, also some facts surrounding how the note was printed and my son being uncooperative etc all lies, feels like damage control to me. He also kept using the word dishonest, yes what my son did was wrong but to say it repeatedly in the email, it felt like he's saying they've been good to us and we should accept what they're offering and go away.

He also seems to think we (as in my son) owe them for the investigation. It's highly likely he's on a wage and an employee of the company because he has a company email, for example if legal beagles was a company and an employee has the email they are writing from ending in @legalbeagles.co.uk, in fact every email he cc'd into the email ended the same. Also the "steps 2" lady whom dismissed my son is a manager at the store in question, tho she was not my sons manager she worked in a different department. Even the person in the room with her was an employee my son had seen before so I doubt all these "costs" are valid.

If my son did stumble a few times in recollection when interrogated it was due to him being called in a room unexpectedly and the guy talking to him about police and prison, he was shaken when he left and came home trembling and crying, I feel all this about taking his age into account is a lie and simply there because I brought it up in my email to them.

Also is it legal to interrogate a 16 Yr old by themselves even if voice recorded? And is it even legal to record the interrogation without the parents consent?

The email he sent is below.....thanks..

[Pacific]

Good afternoon - - -


Thank you for your email dated - - - and the points you seek clarification on. Whilst I understand your concerns, I feel it is important that I explain in detail the thought process behind any decisions taken by - - - in this matter.


I am sorry this action is causing - - - anxiety and stress; however, I want to assure you that - - - has considered - - - age and steps have definitely been taken to minimise the level of action taken against - - - in this matter.


When - - - suffers a case of dishonesty by its employees it is a standard policy to involve the police and ask them to conduct a criminal investigation into theft against - - -.


At the end of - - -'s first meeting, - - - would have expected me to call the police to attend the store as per policy, however due to - - - ’s age I made a decision not to involve the police in this matter, meaning - - - only had to deal with the employee investigation and as such I took away the need for - - - to be involved in any criminal investigation, this is not normally the steps - - - would take in a dishonesty investigation.


--- also operates a civil recovery scheme with our civil recovery partners, a company called - - - (along with most other retailers in the UK) in which when dishonesty happens, the company is entitled to recover their losses and any associated case costs under Civil Law from any individual person responsible for that loss. This process was explained in detail in - - - 's first meeting, and I will explain it for you today in this email. I also explained to - - - the fact case costs would also be added to the claim and this was understood by - - - , as you have referred to this in your email to me on the - - - .


---’s normal policy is to seek to recover full case costs in any dishonesty case, however the investigator has the discretion to offer a reduced case cost rate, if an employee has been fully co-operative in the investigation. Unfortunately, whilst - - - did admit to spending the credit note, he was not fully co-operative in the first investigation and in fact mislead the initial meeting, by not being truthful about the facts, which I will explain below.


In these circumstances it is standard policy for - - - to look to recover full losses and full case costs from an employee who has not been fully co-operative. Again, I took into account - - - 's age, and I still made the decision to heavily reduce the claim value from over £700 to which - - - would be entitled to claim, to £186


The civil recovery process was fully explained to - - - in his first steps meeting by myself on a recorded interview. This process was also explained in a letter that was handed to - - - in his case folder after the first meeting, this letter explains the process - - - follows in all such matters.


I also informed - - - that - - - would not make contact with him until after his steps 2 meeting had taken place and that all correspondence for recovering any monies owed to - - - would be through - - - going forwards. I have attached a copy of the letter that was explained to - - - in his first meeting, for your reference.


So, whilst I can understand your concerns, I hope you can now see that I have taken into account - - - ’s age and I have made decisions against normal company process, by not calling the police to investigate a Theft from - - - and by not claiming the full case costs against - - - in this matter.


In terms to the point you raised, of me informing - - - that “no action would be taken” this was in regards to not involving the police, however I was very clear on the recorded interview with - - - that - - - would still look to potentially take action from an employment point of view as well as looking to recover any losses and case costs


Whilst I did decide to still offer a discounted rate for case cost, this was against normal policy due to - - - misleading the investigation. The reason why I feel - - - did not fully co-operate is because during the first meeting with myself, when - - - was asked to explain his actions, - - - stated he served a customer with a credit note and it did not print correctly, so he had to reprint it. - - - then stated he mistakenly gave the wrong credit note to the customer and when he realised this mistake, he made a silly decision to spend the credit note himself.


Despite this statement being challenged, - - - was insistent throughout the whole meeting that this was the truth, and he did not intentionally reprint the credit note for any personal gain or dishonest purposes. Once the meeting was over, the cctv and data was viewed in more detail again, and it was clear that this statement from - - - was not true. This was because the original credit note was printed by - - - and immediately handed to the customer without checking the credit note, the customer then left the store. After the customer had left - - - , - - - then went to the till and deliberately reprinted another credit note, this cancelled out the original credit note for the customer causing a complaint for - - - in that the customer was unable to spend their credit note and - - - had to reissue it at a loss to - - - .


--- then tested the reprinted credit note on a till, five minutes after the customer had left, to see if the credit note was live and contained a value, this was a deliberate action by - - - , before he then spent the credit note in full for personal gain.


The evidence showed there was no initial problem with the customer’s credit note as claimed by - - - and the reprinted credit note was done deliberately after the customer had left - - - which would not have happened, if there was an issue with the printing of the original credit note. This evidence was then put to - - - in his second meeting and at this point - - - changed his version of events and admitted that the credit note was produced dishonestly for personal gain.


Based on the fact dishonesty had taken place and that - - - had mislead the initial investigation, - - - then made the decision to recover its losses and case costs from - - -, however as explained already, by taking into account - - - ’s age, I decided not to look to recover full costs and reduced the value of the claim.


In answer to your question of “will civil recovery affect any future credit scores” the initial answer is no, it will not. However, should - - - decide not to pay back the loss, then - - - may decide to seek compensation through a civil courts for their losses and costs and should that action be taken by - - - and the case upheld by the court, then a county court judgment maybe issued against - - - to which in turn, could affect any future credit scores.


Below is a breakdown of the costs incurred by - - - as well as the value - - - is looking to recover in comparison.


Actual Losses and Case Costs

• Fraudulent credit note = £66.36

• 16 hours and 3 visits to the store to investigate and interview (including evidence gathering, CCTV work, Datamining, Interview, admin, handover and organising the second meeting) = £480

• 4 hours for a disciplinary manager and witness to hold a second meeting with - - - including time to prepare for the meeting, hand over from the initial investigation, and admin after the meeting = £240

This means - - - was entitled to recover £786.36 and make a claim for that value via civil recovery.


In the interest of fairness and taking into account - - - ’s age, we did not pursue a claim for the full amount and the actual claim value is below


Actual Claim Value

• Fraudulent credit note = £66.36

• 2 hours work instead of 16 hours for the first investigation = £60

• 1 hours work for 2 managers at the steps 2 instead of 4 hours work = £60

This means - - - has raised a claim for £186.36 instead of £786.36.


I hope this email gives you a clearer understanding of the process - - - takes in all matters of dishonesty, and I hope you can accept now that - - - has taken into account - - - ’s age and has not acted harshly by making a decision to not involve the police, as well as offering a discounted rate for civil recovery which goes against our normal practice.


--- wishes to resolve this matter as soon as possible to avoid any further stress being caused for - - -, equally - - - has expressed a desire to payback any monies owed. Therefore, as a gesture of good will, should the money be paid back to - - - within 30 days from today, I would be willing to reduce the claim value to £150


If - - - wishes to take this offer, - - - will need to email me directly and I will send him the companies bank details and how to pay. In the meantime, I will put the case on hold with CRS whilst this offer is being considered.


Should - - - decide not to accept this offer, or - - - doesn’t email me back with 30 days, then - - - will make a decision on whether to instruct CRS to continue with the claim or not, with any correspondence relating to civil recovery, being made through CRS going forwards


I hope you can see that - - - has taken steps outside of normal policy to minimise the level of action taken against - - - and you now have an understanding of the process - - - follows in matters of this nature


If you have any questions or wish to take the reduced offer, please email me with 30 days

[Pacific]

Below is the notice he attached to the above email, this is the first time we're seeing this, he didn't give my son this when he was suspended. I remember when he walked through the door he was terrified, I had been on the phone with him crying all the way home, he had nothing on him and I specifically asked if they gave him a letter or anything of the suspension, they had given him nothing just told him to leave and that they would contact him.

I simply wanted to know why they drafted credit services threatening court action when my son had already said he would pay anything they ask. But this response has gotten me irritated and upset that they treated my son like that, nothing to do with the money I'm just glad my son is safe and that they didn't call police but at the same time I don't understand the lies from them and don't believe they did things properly. I just want to give them what they want and be done with it, but at the same time don't want to give them a penny more than the law states after they treated my son like that.

[des8]

What a load of old codswallop!

A worker has a statutory right to be accompanied by a colleague at a disciplinary hearing, but not an investigative interview.
There is no such right to be accompanied by a parent in the case of a young person although it may be appropriate to allow it in the case of a very young individual.
Contrast that with the right to be accompanied by an appropriate adult in the case of police interviews!

Your son defrauded his employer of goods retail value c£40.and that is the most a county court would award as damages

Case costs would be nominal as the store cannot allocate employees wages to the cost of investigation as those wages would be paid regardless

You have choices:
Pay the store £40 and tell them that is their lot and ignore further correspondence
Pay the store £150 and they will not bother you further
Pay nothing and ignore Civil Recovery Solutions letter stream until they give up

[Pacific]

At the initial investigative interview where he was suspended, he was taken by his manager to see the fraud investigator, he had no idea why until he got there, it was just them 2 but it was voice recorded by the investigator.

The investigator did tell him he could have a colleague present at the future disciplinary meeting, or a parent because he's under 18 but my son told me he didn't want anyone there he wanted to go by himself, he was embarrassed for what he had done and justly so.

I will ask them for the retail cost of the items he took from the store and pay it and nothing more.

[Scott_12]

As I can say that what he did was totally wrong but he admitted his crime and agree to pay all the money back. He could be got to jail if the manager called the police but he was lucky that they did not call the police. But the notice from the Civil claim notice cleared that the manager had a complaint case against him and had not told him before.

[atticus]

It is most unlikely that he would be "got to jail" for an offence as described.