Discontinued - Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [ WON !!!! ]

**CaptainBiscuit** · 28th May 2014, 12:53:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

The only document I can find on my computer pertaining to the bank account is this letter, which I sent back in 2008:

12.08.2008

Customer Service Recovery Centre,
Lloyds TSB,
2 Brindleyplace
Birmingham B1 2AB

Ref: Account number: ########

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to request a refund of all the default charges that have been applied to my account, and removal of any default notices on my credit record incurred by your actions.

Under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, charges may not be punitive and must reflect the bank's administration costs. I believe that the recent charges applied to my account are unlawful as they do not reflect the administrative costs in any way. The inital amount overdrawn was £18.56 and the charges at the time of writing, £172.25, are a gross overexaggeration of the true cost of maintaining my account.

I am aware of the current legal test case between the Office Of Fair Trading and Lloyds TSB and the suspension of overdraft complaints, however I was given no prior notification of the changes in unauthorised overdraft fees, nor of the change in complaints procedure; this I consider a breach of contract under clause 7.6 (and indirectly, 8.2) of your general terms and conditions:

"We will tell you the charge for any other service or product before we provide that service or product, and at anytime you ask."

Irrespective of the test case, I ask that any default notices entered against my credit record are removed entirely and within 14 days. Thus far you have taken from me £132 in overdraft charges, £40.00 in returned direct debit charges and £0.25 of overdraft interest, and so I wish to be repaid the total sum of £172.25. I may consider an immediate settlement that takes into consideration your administrative costs in maintaining my account, provided a reply is recieved within this same time period.

Please repay this money in full and remove any default notices within 14 days. If this is not done, I will begin a claim against you for the total amount, plus interest and any costs I may incur whilst doing so.

Yours faithfully,

(CaptainBiscuit)

I have no idea if that has any bearing upon anything but someone might find it useful...

If that letter was my last communication with the bank or DCAs, it would be very close to the 'statute barred' deadline, surely? Unlikely, but maybe that's the reason this has suddenly reared its ugly head.

**FlamingParrot** · 28th May 2014, 15:00:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Originally posted by CaptainBiscuit View Post

Ok, years ago I had a current account with Lloyds TSB.

One day, as a young unemployed musician, a cash machine allowed me to take out £10 even though there wasn't enough in my account to cover it. Next month I got hit with an overdraft charge and din't have a penny to pay it. Over the next few months charges upon charges upon charges began to snowball; in no time there was a few hundred pounds in debt.

Originally posted by CaptainBiscuit View Post

But today (28th May 2014), I received a County Court Claim Form from Bryan Carter Solicitors (on behalf of Lowell Portfolio) asking me to pay £978.54.
Talk about detailed, eh? The account number is definitely my old Lloyds account, but how it reached £792 I can't begin to imagine. I can't access the old account on the phone or Online Banking, and I didn't keep paper statements, so I have literally no idea what I'm defending against or why.

Originally posted by CaptainBiscuit View Post

I'm really unsure about the CPR request for documents and want to make sure I get it right, any suggested templates? I 'm a damned good writer (modest too) and would prefer to subtly rewrite things if possible to distance myself from the 'standard template letters', but I suspect that's a waste of time and effort?

Welcome to LB

CPR requests are just for documents referred to on the particulars of claim, was that ALL the PoC said?

There is a CPR request letter for current account O/Ds here: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...682#post409682

**FlamingParrot** · 28th May 2014, 15:09:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Originally posted by CaptainBiscuit View Post

The only document I can find on my computer pertaining to the bank account is this letter, which I sent back in 2008:

I have no idea if that has any bearing upon anything but someone might find it useful...

If that letter was my last communication with the bank or DCAs, it would be very close to the 'statute barred' deadline, surely? Unlikely, but maybe that's the reason this has suddenly reared its ugly head.

What did you receive in response to that letter?

Sadly 'very close' isn't good enough, since they've issue proceedings a few months earlier, the clock has already been reset.

The regulations concerning unarranged O/Ds didn't come into force till 2010 or 2011: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...144#post312144

**CaptainBiscuit** · 29th May 2014, 14:37:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Originally posted by FlamingParrot View Post

What did you receive in response to that letter?

Sadly 'very close' isn't good enough, since they've issue proceedings a few months earlier, the clock has already been reset.

The regulations concerning unarranged O/Ds didn't come into force till 2010 or 2011: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...144#post312144

Cheers for the quick replies, Parrot!

It doesn't look like I ever received a reply, and I'm starting to suspect I never sent it (I can't find a recorded delivery receipt which I'm fairly sure I would have kept).

Having spoken with my ex-girlfriend from the time to refresh my memory, I suspect what happened is this:

I 'owed' around £200-£300 to Lloyds, composed entirely of overdraft/bounced payment charges
After all attempts to get the charges reversed or at least frozen, they offered me an arranged overdraft (£300 possibly?)over the phone as a way of covering the bills so I didn't incur further charges, which I gratefully accepted
A few days later a member of family loaned me the full amount anyway to pay off the 'debt' in full, which I gratefully did, putting the account back in the clear with one lump payment
After a few weeks, I realised I still had an arranged O/D facility which I assumed I could use freely like the ones my student friends all had! I think I used at least some of the O/D to buy food and furniture for my new house
The overdraft started shrinking every month and I called Lloyds in a panic. Apparently I was on some kind of 'payment plan' where the O/D was reduced each month until the debt was repaid. I explained that I no longer owed the debt and that the payment plan was unnecessary but was told it couldn't be cancelled. In online banking etc it had showed as a standard arranged O/D, giving me not clue of the 'payment plan'.
I didn't have enough consistent income (try being a full-time gigging musician...never again) to reduce the balance and soon fell into all sorts of charges again
Feeling like I'd been unfairly wronged by Lloyds and their refusal to be reasonable, I opened an account with another bank and didn't bother to tell them when I moved house again not long afterwards
Several years later I receive a court summons to my newest address with no particulars beyond the Lloyds account's number and sort code, which has inexplicably risen to nearly £1000

That's the best I can remember it - I'll need statements etc to figure out exactly what happened and how.

I was misled into thinking I'd been given an overdraft facility, which turned out to be a payment plan for a debt that had already been repaid, and I couldn't afford to keep making 'repayments'. I'm fairly certain I didn't sign anything or get a chance to see the terms of the overdraft agreement, it was all done over the phone very casually. bear in mind that almost the entirety of the original 'debt' was made up of excessive bank charges after going £10 overdrawn.

CPR requests are just for documents referred to on the particulars of claim, was that ALL the PoC said?

There is a CPR request letter for current account O/Ds here: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...682#post409682

The quote in the original post is literally everything in the Particulars box (except for the bit about claiming interest at 8% a year). I have basically nothing to go on, and no way of finding details for the bank account in question. Lloyds don't even acknowledge it as an account now.

I'm going to edit and mail the CPR request this afternoon.

Would it be prudent to contact Lloyds on the phone and see if I can regain access to internet banking/statements? That way while I'm waiting for Bryan Carter's reply I can at least try and work out more accurate dates/amounts/timeline etc. I very much want to play the 'layman' card if that will help, rather than trying to compete in a complicated battle of legal minutae with a major solicitor.

Cheers again for your help! makes me feel a little less lost and helpless. I'm going to see the Citizens' Advice Bureau too, but I suspect their advice will be 'make them a reasonable offer you can afford' and frankly I hate the idea of paying them off for a quiet life when I don't believe I owe them money.

EDIT: Contacted Lloyds and TSB on the phone, neither can find any trace of my account on the system since it was apparently closed in 2009 (presumably when it went to Collections). I've been advised to go to my local Lloyds branch where they may be able to do bring up details, statements etc of the old account. Worth a punt!

**CaptainBiscuit** · 29th May 2014, 16:26:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Ok, currently editing the CPR 34.14 request and I feel this might be a bit complex due to the total lack of particulars on the claim.

I just decided (against my better judgement) to give Bryan Carter a call from a 'layman' perspective kinda thing. Seemed fairly helpful and said the debt was passed over with very few details and he'd endeavour to contact me again with more information, as well as advising me to find independent legal advice. I don't feel as though speaking to them on the phone could be in any way detrimental to my defense, since at this point I still have almost no idea what I'm defending against!

**Amethyst** · 29th May 2014, 16:39:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Those particulars could be for anything really. Goodness knows who they get away with that so often. You believe it is for this overdraft (does the account number on the statement of case match your old account number ?) did you have any other products with Lloyds about the same time?

I have moved your thread into the right place btw, as it was in the library xx

**CaptainBiscuit** · 29th May 2014, 18:05:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Originally posted by Amethyst View Post

Those particulars could be for anything really. Goodness knows who they get away with that so often. You believe it is for this overdraft (does the account number on the statement of case match your old account number ?) did you have any other products with Lloyds about the same time?

I have moved your thread into the right place btw, as it was in the library xx

Yeah, I'm a little shocked at how little information there was in the particulars...is that not something that could be considered objectionable in the defense? My guess is they figured they'd get default judgement, since I never replied to the occasional 'scare' letters (thinking they were empty threats or a scam).

I bought a guitar on finance with Blackhorse, thinking it'd be beneficial to build up a credit rating. Everything was fine until Lloyds started with the crazy O/D charges on my current account - it basically ruined my ability to make payments and I ended up defaulting on that agreement. The debt was passed to Mackensie Hall who were exceptionally rude and abusive and refused any of my suggestions. I contacted Black Horse offering an immediate lump sum and payment plan if could could return my agreement to them instead of dealing with a DCA. They told me it was certainly possible, but then a week later gave a no. So I sent Mackensie Hall a CCA request plus insistence on written communication only to stop the daily texts and calls (citing the Protection From Harrassment Act '97) complete with postal order, by recorded mail, and haven't heard much since.
That HP agreement was for around £700, so I briefly considered the possibility that it had somehow been added to my current account (Blackhorse being part of the Lloyds group and all). That doesn't seem legal somehow!

Thanks for moving my post by the way. Been on here quite a bit to read up on stuff, awesome community, but never needed to post...until now! :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

**CaptainBiscuit** · 9th June 2014, 13:00:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

May 29, 2014

Bryan Carter Solicitors LLP

11 De Havilland Drive
Weybridge
Surrey
KT13 0YP

Account No.: ################
Case: Lowell Portfolio Ltd vs CaptainBiscuit
Ref: ######

Dear Sir / Madam,

On 27^th May 2014 I received a Claim Form issued by you in the Northampton County Court.

I have acknowledged service to the court and indicated my intention to contest the claim in its entirety. Your Particulars Of Claim offer insufficient detail of the alleged debt for me to prepare a defence. As such ,please consider this letter a request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a true copy of all documents you seek to rely upon in court.

I would expect the documents to include:

The agreement /confirmation of any overdraft facility and Terms and Conditions from that date
The Demand/Termination Notice (Notice served under Sections 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974)
Statement of account for the account mentioned in the Particulars Of Claim
Notices of Sums in Arrears under running account credit CCA2006 sec 86C
Notice of Assignment
Any other documents you seek to rely upon in court.

You should ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.
In accordance with CPR 31.15(c) I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request, you must tell me in writing.
Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

I hope this will not prove necessary and await your timely response.

Yours faithfully,

CaptainBiscuit

Any advice on this? I feel like the standard 34.14 template might not cut it (it refers to 'documents referred to in the particulars of claim when in this case there are none) and I'm running out of time rapidly!

**FlamingParrot** · 9th June 2014, 15:48:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Originally posted by CaptainBiscuit View Post

Any advice on this? I feel like the standard 34.14 template might not cut it (it refers to 'documents referred to in the particulars of claim when in this case there are none) and I'm running out of time rapidly!

Although not referred to directly, the PoC does mention an 'agreement' as well as being 'assigned'. This means you can ask for the alleged agreement as well as the notice of assignment at the very least. Since the account was assigned (sold) and they are now suing you, it's implied that the account would have been terminated and/or defaulted after being in arrears, hence asking for notices informing you of such fact. There's a specified amount claimed which means it should be backed up by a statement of account.

**CaptainBiscuit** · 13th June 2014, 11:25:AM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

OK, I sent the standard CPR 31.14 current account template and got a reply this morning.

We write further to your letter dated 8 June 2014 requesting disclosure under Part 31 of the Civil Procedure Rules.

We confirm the Claim Form was issued by the Northampton County Court Bulk Centre and that the Court's Protocol was followed when issuing the Claimant's Particulars of Claim. Practice Direction 7C point 1.5 (3A) eliminates the requirement to attach the documents to the Particulars Of Claim when they are issued by this court.

We confirm this matter will most properly be allocated to the Small Claims Track as this is a simple contractual matter and Part 31 of the Civil Procedure Rules will therefore not apply. In any event the
Notices of Default and Assignment left control of the Claimant when they were dispatched to you.

It is the original creditor's policy to issue agreeements at the start of the contract and statements throughout the duration of the agreement and, in this regard, we ask you to refer to your own records.

We confirm our client is not agreeable to an extension for filing your defence.

As you will be aware a Claim was issued in this matter on 21 May 2014 and we confirm we are in receipt of your acknowledgement of service. Please respond to the Claim using the Response Pack provided by the court. You should comply with the deadlines outlined by the Court in order to avoid a default Judgement being entered against you.

We recommend you seek independent legal advice.

Yours sincerely,
Bryan Carter

I'm lost at this point! I still don't have a clue what I'm defending against and can't get any access to my old statements through Lloyds bank, the account is long gone.

**Amethyst** · 13th June 2014, 11:33:AM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Well you'll either have to do an application to the court to order compliance with your 31.14 request, and / or enter a defence along the same lines.

As far as you are concerned it was overdrawn by a small amount in 2006/2007 ? and that was last time you had anything to do with the account ? You do know what the claim is for, but not thorugh them helping you, but because you recognise the old account number. So defence would be along the lines of yes I had an account with Lloyds, didnt have overdraft facility but incurred some charges which put me overdrawn, paid that off in 2006/7 and presumed that was end of matter until received court claim - claimant hasnt provided any documents to demonstrate how the debt is made up or any evidence that it is owed or legally assigned to them ??? We'll help you write it, just lets get the right facts sorted and a plan in mind first xx

**CaptainBiscuit** · 13th June 2014, 11:57:AM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

So rather than dealing with em I can simply write up a defense? Seems like a sensible plan, yes! It's a shame my record-keeping is so bad really....

**Amethyst** · 13th June 2014, 12:06:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

Rather than dealing with them directly I guess.

**CaptainBiscuit** · 16th June 2014, 12:59:PM

Re: Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [advice desperately sought!]

What kind of approach should I take for writing a defense then? Does it need to be in clear legalese or can I write it from more of a layman's perspective?

Discontinued - Bryan Carter/Lowell/Lloyds vs CaptainBiscuit [ WON !!!! ]