Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

**Amethyst** · 19th January 2018, 07:45:AM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

Morning Ollie

This is a sad situation for you after you were generous enough to help them out when, presumably, they were in a bit of a pickle. Now they have an issue between themselves you're being caught up in.

Firstly was this money used for a deposit on the property ( just checking you haven't signed anything with the mortgage company to confirm the money was a gift as sometimes happens )
Or for arrears ? Was it a condition of the loan that it was used for the property ?

So you need to defend the counterclaim and reply to the defence. Should be quite straightforward.

You'd lay out much as you would a standard defence... and then serve a copy on Person A and send to the court ( you can normally email it to the court if you put it on a PDF )

Has Person A laid out their defence and counterclaim in paragraphs ? easiest way is to refer to those in your reply and defence. Or is it just a block of text ? Might be worth posting the entire document and your original claim.

In the Northampton County Court Business Centre

Claim No XXXXX

Your name

v

Person A name

Date 2018

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to Defence
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defence to Counterclaim
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.
2.
3.
4.
5. It is denied that Person A is entitled to the sum claimed.

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Reply and Defence are true.

Signed ________________________________

Dated _______________________________

**Amethyst** · 19th January 2018, 07:55:AM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

Moving your thread into the court forum xxx

For future ref email for Northampton CCBC;
Claim responses & directions: ccbcaq@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: DEFENCE & REPLY xxxxx v xxxxxxxxx - Claim XXXXX

**Ollieb123** · 20th January 2018, 15:05:PM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

Thank you so much for the response.
the money was loaned via verbal agreement and witnessed by three other people. A paper was signed a couple of weeks later saying it was a gift for building society purposes, I wasn't aware that is what it was, I was just asked to sign ....however there is nothing on there that would implicate me, only insofar as the only paragraph states that I have no financial interest in the property. Which I don't! ObviouSly if the court decide this is an issue, there would be a further implication, of possible mortgage fraud?? Not on me,,but perhaps as could be implicated?

there was nothing verbalised or written that the money was to be used for the house, only the paper I asked their building society for. I have had this form checked by a solicitor who states that there is nothing legal or otherwise on that form that would make me liable or would be of any use in any court case?

I wondered if when replying and defending to the counterclaim, am I still the claimant in the reply, but become the defendant in the defence to the counterclaim?
the case has been transferred to a local court and it states ' as this claim has been defended, you are now the defendant, so please respond accordingly, which is the part I am confused about.
Person A has written one continuous statement, in both the defence no counterclaim which I have broken down into sentences and structured as you suggested in the reply and defence, by numbering the paragraphs. As I said, I don't know if I am still the Claimant, or the Defendant.

would I be able to email you the documents and remove identifiers please?

Thank you you so much once again for the prompt attention.
oliie

**Ollieb123** · 20th January 2018, 15:25:PM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

Sorry, to repost, there is an allocation questionnaire that has to be returned by 5 Feb, but no mention anywhere of when the reply and defence has to be returned by?

Should I opt for mediation,never though I know that the other party will not even entertain it as this person has threatened all sorts of court orders, police, claiming harassment, accusations of theft of property etc. I have no doubt that if they had still been in a relationship, this would have been a non issue, as person A would have still been repaying the outstanding financial obligation to me.
Thanka again
Ollie

**Amethyst** · 20th January 2018, 16:20:PM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

Originally posted by Ollieb123

Sorry, to repost, there is an allocation questionnaire that has to be returned by 5 Feb, but no mention anywhere of when the reply and defence has to be returned by?

Should I opt for mediation,never though I know that the other party will not even entertain it as this person has threatened all sorts of court orders, police, claiming harassment, accusations of theft of property etc. I have no doubt that if they had still been in a relationship, this would have been a non issue, as person A would have still been repaying the outstanding financial obligation to me.
Thanka again
Ollie

The Reply to Defence and Counterclaim would go in with the allocation questionnaire. When that's returned you should also serve a copy on the other side.

Yes you should opt for mediation as it's a useful back up if you decide to try and sort this out outside of court.

Originally posted by Ollieb123 View Post

Thank you so much for the response.
the money was loaned via verbal agreement and witnessed by three other people. A paper was signed a couple of weeks later saying it was a gift for building society purposes, I wasn't aware that is what it was, I was just asked to sign ....however there is nothing on there that would implicate me, only insofar as the only paragraph states that I have no financial interest in the property. Which I don't! ObviouSly if the court decide this is an issue, there would be a further implication, of possible mortgage fraud?? Not on me,,but perhaps as could be implicated?

there was nothing verbalised or written that the money was to be used for the house, only the paper I asked their building society for. I have had this form checked by a solicitor who states that there is nothing legal or otherwise on that form that would make me liable or would be of any use in any court case?

I wondered if when replying and defending to the counterclaim, am I still the claimant in the reply, but become the defendant in the defence to the counterclaim?
the case has been transferred to a local court and it states ' as this claim has been defended, you are now the defendant, so please respond accordingly, which is the part I am confused about.
Person A has written one continuous statement, in both the defence no counterclaim which I have broken down into sentences and structured as you suggested in the reply and defence, by numbering the paragraphs. As I said, I don't know if I am still the Claimant, or the Defendant.

would I be able to email you the documents and remove identifiers please?

Thank you you so much once again for the prompt attention.
oliie

Ahhh okay. Did you keep a copy of that paper ? Has the defendant mentioned it at all ? Was the money used as a deposit for their house or to pay off some arrears etc ?

I have had this form checked by a solicitor who states that there is nothing legal or otherwise on that form that would make me liable or would be of any use in any court case?

Were you asking the solicitor specifically about this situation ( recouping your money from the Defendant ) or were you asking if it made you liable should they, for instance, stop making mortgage payments etc ?

as this claim has been defended, you are now the defendant, so please respond accordingly

Nope that makes no sense to me either. Might do if it said There is now a counterclaim ... or something like that.
You are the Defendant in the Counterclaim, but the Claimant in the main claim - it confuses heck out of me too - it is easier with something like an application where you become applicant or respondent - when I've written any previously I've tended to resort to using names on both sides to save getting confused.

all sorts of court orders, police, claiming harassment, accusations of theft of property etc.

What the heck is that about then ? Have you actually done anything that could have been construed as harrassment or theft at all ?

Have you discussed the matter with Person B btw ? What are their thoughts - are they as angry as Person A or willing to cover the rest of the loan themselves ?

**Ollieb123** · 20th January 2018, 16:37:PM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

There is no date whatsoever on any of the paperwork when replies have to be sent/served. The only date is the 5th February for the allocation questionnaire, which in itself is a bit of a strange form.
Yes I have a copy of this paper. Person A hasn't mentioned it at all in the defence, counterclaim etc., just states Gift. Perhaps Person A is relying on this in court as evidence.
apprently, after this money was transferred to Person B's bank account, Person A and B decided to use it as the deposit for a house purchase. Hence two weeks later get this form to sign.. I have read that if money is intended as a true gift, for a house purchase then their conveyancing solicitor should have, by law, requested ID in the form of passport, driving licence, utility bill etc from the donor, due to money laundering regulations. I'm not too sure about this point though.

I I asked the solicitor about this form only, not about my subsequent claim after person A refused to repay the agreed monthly repayments.

I I don't know with regards to the threats of police and courts, that does not worry me., person A has issues with person B, so my theory is that they should be taken up with person B and that my claim and `person A is seemingly trying to dilute fhe claim and counterclaim by offering up the issues with person B. I really want to state this on the reply and defence as person A has referred to these matters frequently in the defence and counterclaim.

IMhave made Person B aware that I have commenced proceedings against Person A, but I feel this is not Person B's matter. I am intending to rely on Person B plus two,other witnesses if needed.

Also, do `i need to submit witness statements at this time,many evidence such as text messages sent and received?

thanks again for giving up your time.
Ollie

**Amethyst** · 20th January 2018, 17:03:PM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

The counterclaim should be defended within 14 days of service though, so send your AQ back at the same time. It's the N180 ? ( https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.j...k/n180-eng.pdf ) ??

Witness Statements will not be until after the claim has been allocated to your local court and they have issued directions - so all the whys whats wherefores will wait for then

I'm going to have to do some reading on this 'gift' issue. I do feel if you stated it as a gift for the building society that's going to clobber you - but Person A hasn't mentioned it so they might just be using you as a kind of battering ram against Person B without too much thought having gone in to it.

**Ollieb123** · 20th January 2018, 21:57:PM

Re: Reply and Defence to Counterclaim

Originally posted by Amethyst View Post

The counterclaim should be defended within 14 days of service though, so send your AQ back at the same time. It's the N180 ? ( https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.j...k/n180-eng.pdf ) ??

Witness Statements will not be until after the claim has been allocated to your local court and they have issued directions - so all the whys whats wherefores will wait for then

thnk you - it has already been allocated to the local court, and there are no directions, only saying that the AQ has to be returned by 5 February.

I'm going to have to do some reading on this 'gift' issue. I do feel if you stated it as a gift for the building society that's going to clobber you - but Person A hasn't mentioned it so they might just be using you as a kind of battering ram against Person B without too much thought having gone in to it.

We didn't gift it for the purpose of the building society, it was a loan, which was given in full knowledge and repayment terms however, later Person A and B decided they needed to put it towards their house purchase.
different building societies have different forms and wording, there isn't a single one I've found that are of the same prescribed format, which is confusing the matter for me.

really appreciate your help, and much needed support.

**Ollieb123** · 1st February 2018, 16:05:PM

Good afternoon,
well, the reply and defence were posted both to the local court and other party as requested.
i sent these by Royal Mail, guaranteed signed for delivery. The court have received theirs, however the other party has alleged to have 'gone away' and so the forms have been refused.
i rang the court who have told me to call the CAB as they aren't legally trained!!!!!!! Surely thy know the procedures?!!!! THe CAB cant help me either.
what do I do now?

**jaguarsuk** · 1st February 2018, 17:27:PM

Hi

I have some personal experience of going to court to recover a loan when the agreement was made verbally and then the debtor tries to argue it was not a loan as a Litigant in Person (representing myself).

You should have got it in writing, as should I and it's a lesson learnt the hard way.

However, my personal experience had a positive outcome for me and if the right steps are taken so could yours for you.

If the money was a gift why was the Defendant making repayments to you at regular intervals? One doesn't make payments at regular intervals to return a gift. They can assert they felt guilty all they want, but the judge will have to believe it. This is what my case hung on as I didn't have a witness to get a statement from, but you do!

As their relationship has broken down it may well be that B is more than willing to give you a witness statement to the effect that it was a loan of Ł7,000 to be repaid equally by both parties. Approach them and ask? If you can get this it'll strengthen your case.

The key is going to be to overcoming the paper stating it was a gift for the house. The fact that you signed it and the signature can be compared to the court documents you have signed would make this a really hard argument to a judge if they accept it.

If it didn't state it was gift you could dismiss it as you comforting A & B that you didn't care what the money was for because you expected them to repay the loan and that was your only concern. Ideally you don't want to have to mention it in case the defendant has forgotten about it or lost it.

The Defendant is doing what a lot of people do in this circumstance, they are trying to assert that the money wasn't loaned to them and that as it went to something they did not have the benefit of the loan. I worked in a bank once upon a time and I can tell you that regardless of what the person spends the loan money on it doesn't matter, even if it's completely different to what they said they want it for.

Seeing your Particulars of Claim and Reply to Defence would be useful (with personal information removed of course).

**Ollieb123** · 1st February 2018, 17:57:PM

Thank you so much for the response...

Originally posted by jaguarsuk View Post

Hi

I have some personal experience of going to court to recover a loan when the agreement was made verbally and then the debtor tries to argue it was not a loan as a Litigant in Person (representing myself).

You should have got it in writing, as should I and it's a lesson learnt the hard way. I know,,! However, you don't expect family members to pull this kind of stunt!

However, my personal experience had a positive outcome for me and if the right steps are taken so could yours for you. I hope so

If the money was a gift why was the Defendant making repayments to you at regular intervals? Quite! One doesn't make payments at regular intervals to return a gift. They can assert they felt guilty all they want, but the judge will have to believe it. This is what my case hung on as I didn't have a witness to get a statement from, but you do!

As their relationship has broken down it may well be that B is more than willing to give you a witness statement to the effect that it was a loan of Ł7,000 to be repaid equally by both parties. Approach them and ask? If you can get this it'll strengthen your case. The two witnesses have already written a statement for me and the court if needed.

The key is going to be to overcoming the paper stating it was a gift for the house. The fact that you signed it and the signature can be compared to the court documents you have signed would make this a really hard argument to a judge if they accept it.

If it didn't state it was gift you could dismiss it as you comforting A & B that you didn't care what the money was for because you expected them to repay the loan and that was your only concern. Ideally you don't want to have to mention it in case the defendant has forgotten about it or lost it. ...and that is it in a nutshell!

The Defendant is doing what a lot of people do in this circumstance, they are trying to assert that the money wasn't loaned to them and that as it went to something they did not have the benefit of the loan. I worked in a bank once upon a time and I can tell you that regardless of what the person spends the loan money on it doesn't matter, even if it's completely different to what they said they want it for.

Seeing your Particulars of Claim and Reply to Defence would be useful (with personal information removed of course).

Can I email the docs to you?
although I have addde to the post, court have received the documents but other party has not... someone at ththe address has claimed that they have gone away!!!!

**jaguarsuk** · 1st February 2018, 18:27:PM

The Witness Statements are excellent. If one of them is B even better, if not still ask B because the fact they are a party of the loan plus and extra witness just makes things better.

Dont email them to me, as I don’t need to know your personal information. email them to:

Kati

she’ll come along to post an email address soon. All worth a look are:

Paticulars of Claim/Claim Form
Defence
Reply to Defence
Witness Statements

**jaguarsuk** · 1st February 2018, 18:30:PM

Don’t worry about them having gone away. Your only obligation in serving documents is to send them by normal post.

As as long as the court get your documents in a timely manner that’s all that counts. Once the claim starts it is the responsibility of both parties to inform the court and every other party if their addrsss changes, as you have not had that you post to the same addres and get proof of posting.

**Kati** · 1st February 2018, 18:37:PM

Originally posted by jaguarsuk View Post

Dont email them to me, as I don’t need to know your personal information. email them to:

Kati

she’ll come along to post an email address soon. All worth a look are:

Paticulars of Claim/Claim Form
Defence
Reply to Defence
Witness Statements

kati@legalbeagles.info

Please try to make sure you give me a link to this thread (or tell me your username) in the email so that I know who's post/thread I am looking for xx

Reply and Defence to Counterclaim