Court case VS Anglian Windows

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Yes, we have ptotos of all the work - it's untouched for 18 months since we kicked them off. We have text messages hassling us for extra money for "unforseen work" which started at £2,000 and gradually went down to £700 and "the boys will do it off the record" - clearly a xmas bonus for them. This then into "what can you afford?"!!
We have all of the proof - we are just concerned at the contract as we offered to call it quits 18 months ago but they took US to court for breach of contract so they must be confident or are they presuming we will crack?

[teaboy2]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Yes, we have ptotos of all the work - it's untouched for 18 months since we kicked them off. We have text messages hassling us for extra money for "unforseen work" which started at £2,000 and gradually went down to £700 and "the boys will do it off the record" - clearly a xmas bonus for them. This then into "what can you afford?"!!
We have all of the proof - we are just concerned at the contract as we offered to call it quits 18 months ago but they took US to court for breach of contract so they must be confident or are they presuming we will crack?

They are probably assuming you will crack.

Regarding the text messages demanding money, how often did you receive these? As you may have an additional claim of harassment if they texted you regularly each week. And do you still have the texts?

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Yes, we have all the texts and they are printed off too. Texts went on for 4 days, insisting we had to pay for the job to go forward. Asking for £2,000, then £1,500, then "the boys could do it for £950", then £750, then "how much can you afford"! Of course, this would have invalidated our 10 year guarantee anyway. I feel a lot more confident again after reading the comments on this site

[teaboy2]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Yes "off the record work" would have invalidated the guarantee, as the work would have been deemed as done by a non subcontracted 3rd party and not by Anglican or officially sub contracted by Anglican (I.e. On the record) - So they have attempted to undermine the contract and void the contractual warranty (guarantee) themselves - Clearly a sign they were desperate at the time.

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

To answer Miss FM's question above, they claim to have made the glass but we never saw evidence of it as we stopped the build. Actually, after all the lies about the build was all fine, despite we could see it wasn't, my Wife e mailed photos to the building regulations guy acting on behalf of Anglian. He was the person who stopped the build as it was wrong.
On that note, IF we lose the case, are we then within our rights to request the glass that they claim they have made?

On the pre court hearing, we were quite disturbed that our Solicitor who had been good with all the paperwork and legal side, went to pieces in front of the judge. She had requested a transfer of court to the technical and construction court due to the complex case. The judge took great offence to this and told her so and she sort of crumbled after a telling off and didn't really put our case forward well.

My Wife and I are now considering my Wife representing us in court as she knows the case inside out - something our solicitor does not. Would this be advisable or should we consider a Barrister? We have already had one read our file so he knows the case - but not as well as my Wife. We are trying for mediation anyway but don't hold out much hope, plus we think we will pay all the costs for this and still get nowhere.

[bluebottle]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

You may want to consult a barrister named Ryan Clement who is a member of the Technology and Construction Bar and is Direct Access, which means you do not have to go through a solicitor. Speak to the legal professionals you have dealt with so far about this. Ryan is based in Harrow, London.

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Thanks - the application to transfer to technical and construction court was dismissed. This is what annoyed the judge as he felt it was it was condescending that our solicitor thought the case was too complex for him. :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[bluebottle]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Memo to Montysaurus's solicitor - check the judge's background before opening mouth and putting foot in it. I feel you need specialist legal advice before deciding how to proceed further. It may prove to be money well-spent further down the line.

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

That's what we have been paying the Solicitor for!

[mo786]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Do not represent yourself if you can afford a solicitor - the fact that your wife knows the FACTS is not the most relevant thing - what is relevant is trying to make things work aroudn the LEGAL PROCESS.

All it takes is a muppet judge and you may find it doesn't matter how much your wife knows.

That being said, this sould be a straightforward case - 7k is a lot and I am not sure you need specialist advice per se - just bog standard legal advise from soneone who specialises in breach of contract/ consumer cases. Unless of course you are relying on the fact you will win and get it all back.

[des8]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Can't agree automatically with mo786.
In the small claims track of the County Court, a judge will normally ensure a Litigant in Person does not suffer by not having legal representation.
On the other hand a judge will have little time for a professional who is overbearing towards the LiP, or annoys the judge himself (as the OP has already found out.
If you know your case and have reasonable self confidence you don't need a solicitor. It might be stressful, but not to be feared.
Assume you have read : JCO_Documents_CJC_Publications_Other+papers_Small+ Claims+Guide+for+web+FINAL(2).pdf

[Amethyst]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

I'm shocked by this. I have no idea how on earth you have ended up with a costs hearing resulting in £25k costs on each side for what should be a simple defence and counterclaim on a dodgy conservatory.

You NEED to change solicitor and you need a decent solicitor.

[Amethyst]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Have you got copies of all your paperwork - your claim entered and witness statements etc ?

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Thanks bluebottle and mo786.

Bluebottle - we already have a 'specialist' Construction Solicitor and have had a specialist Construction dispute barristers' review of our case... what additional specialist advice would you recommend - maybe a consumer rights specialist?

Mo786 -We originally had a less specialist local solicitor who tried to claim against an Anglian holding company (Anglian Home Improvements) and not Anglian Windows (with whom we have the contract). Big issue as that one has no funds in the bank.! This is why Anglian essentially 'got in first' and are now taking us to court and we are defending plus counterclaiming, rather than the other way around.
We've therefore already lost confidence once (some days it feels like we're fighting the world on this!) so it's very hard to make the decision to leave yet another solicitor to go with someone less familiar with our plight.

That said, I agree that our current solicitor's fees are very high (much higher than she originally suggested; she said £10k through to the court case, and now it's £27k).

In relation to the previous comments around the Multi track and the advised value of our counterclaim - we were advised to put a maximum limit of £50,000 (we'd said we thought it would cost about £10,000 to put the work right/back to original state, and we wanted our deposit (under £3k) and fees back (if we win) and a recognition of the two years of hideous stress and living in a buildings site).
We may have chosen to have capped this at £25k to go through small claims court, given advice which weighed the pros and cons of both options. We weren't made aware that this would have a significant impact on our fees at the outset... From what you're suggesting, it does?

The case our solicitor has put together is very technical focussing on the detail of the contract (because Anglian are using the contract to say that we're liable for 80% of charges as per the charging schedule, we're contesting that they repudiated the contract themselves).
They instructed that " The matter is complex mainly due to the complexity of the contract and the permutations as to where any point of termination could be established, whether any of the contract terms could or have been triggered to enable termination, automatically trigger termination or whether it could be implied. "

It sometimes feels like it's being over complicated, and surely consumer rights are as important as the finer detail of the contract and proving the scale of the negligent build... Its universally agreed even by Anglian that the whole thing needed tearing down and starting again, so I'm not sure we're barking up the right tree in focussing purely on the workmanship.

Our solicitors have also not yet answered the following fundamental question, but have raised it as one to look into:
Whilst not discussed in the file or by Counsel, by way of letter to xxxxxx Solicitors on 28^th May 2013, the Claimantin paragraph 5 of the letter states that ‘….. Following a review of the requirements to the project plan , it was explained to your clients that the request for additional funds could and was, in fact withdrawn.Therefore, pursuant to the contractual terms we sought, quite properly, to continue with the project plan and absorb any cost which may have subsequently arisen ourselves’.Moreover within the Defence to the Counterclaim the Claimants expand further on this point by numerous suggestions within paragraphs 7.c, 11.c and d, and13.There is argument that whilst they admit that they have attempted to make alteration to the Contractual price and terms etcthat due to retraction of the offered new termsthat the original contract terms are therefore enforceable.There will undoubtedly be significant case law on this particular point in question eg whether making an offer to alter an existing contract or enter into a new contract and then withdrawing such offer is capable of retaining the status quo on the existing contract given the facts of the case and the wording of the contract."
Do you know of any precedent that may advise on whether, at a later state of negotiations, Anglians' offer to absorb the cost of the remedial drainage work (and run it correctly to a soak-away, and not into the mains sewer as originally proposed!), would negate their previous demand? Was the contract broken when they changed the price, or does it stand?

Is it relevant that they wanted us to sign a new contract, albeit for a little less money? (Later in writing, they said it was a 'variation of contract' but at the time they said it was a new contract, and that was why the 'conservatory sales manager' had been the one to call us to get us to sign up.)
We said no to this - mainly because they gave us only a couple of days to agree to the offer and applied pressure through various calls, while refusing to put the verbally agreed remedial actions in writing ("sign now and we'll worry about the details later" they said! They wanted the men on the job in two days!). Unfortunately we also said that a goodwill reduction of £1.5k was not enough, because verbally they'd said they would investigate up to £4k. I think they will use this to make us just look greedy, and to discredit us.
Do you think it could have a big impact on our credibility?
We would counter it was never about price as they were the most expensive quote we got (£4k was the next highest quote we'd received, so the measure of the 'peace of mind' value we'd placed on their sales promises).

A few final questions -
Should we look at trying to move the case to small claims court; is this possible once costs agreed etc in Multi Track?
Is there any value to be had in mediation? Should w ego straight to court?
And - absolutely definitely don't represent ourselves? Should we instruct a barrister on the day, given lack of faith in previous representation where our case just wasn't really out across at all?


Thanks as always for your consideration.

[Montysaurus]

Re: Court case VS Anglian Windows

Amethyst - yes.... files and files and files. Timelines, photographs, all the correspondence from all parties.