Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

[fluffystuff]

Hello everyone,

Just popped over from the 'other side', have brought my thread with me -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...fs-oh-hfc.html

(Certain info has been deleted or amended on occasion for obvious reasons and for which I apologise if it appears not to make sense, but I'm sure you'll get the gist of things!)

All's quiet at the moment, just about to send disclosure by list.

Am happy to let sleeping dogs lie for now but if/when they wake, will come back for advice.

Happy reading!

(Thanks again to 'pt' for his comments already, c/o 'Zhanzibar's' thread and the referral to Delfi.)

[pt2537]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

Ah ha found your thread

Right, well, this is where we won Delfis case,

On the agreement they produced, the rate of interest was materially different to the rate on their statement for the first month after the agreement was executed.

They tried to argue variation,but we pointed out rates were fixed for 6 months according to the terms they relied upon therefore either the terms were wrong or the rate of interest was mis stated. Either way their claim could not succeed.

Do you have the first statement of account, terms and conditions and application that you can post , obviously remove personal details, and we will have a looksy and see what we can do

Also if there is reference to PPI insruance companies in the document, do a check of companies house to see if the companies are still at the address stated. You wouldnt believe how many times these are found to be wrong, and therefore support any allegation that the agreement is not honest or accurate

[fluffystuff]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

Do you have the first statement of account, terms and conditions and application that you can post , obviously remove personal details, and we will have a looksy and see what we can do
They have provided a copy of the first statement which shows the same rate of interest (APR19.9%) as that in the sheet of t&c's- handy for them- copies are barely legible so wouldn't scan well even if I could - sorry! The account dates back to 1994. They have also provided statements from 2005 when the rate was still that which they allege was applied in 1994 - probable or not?? They do not quote seperate rates for cash advances or balance transfers in the t&c's, though they are showing different rates for these services on the later statements.
Also if there is reference to PPI insruance companies in the document, do a check of companies house to see if the companies are still at the address stated. No address stated unfortunately.

I know it's not particularly helpful when you can't see the documents - sorry.
There is nothing on the application form that even suggests t&c's are overleaf or in a seperate document.
The best I can do is try to jog your memory and refer to the assistance you gave to 'robcag' - the docs on his thread are identacle to mine!

[pt2537]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

I know it's not particularly helpful when you can't see the documents - sorry.
There is nothing on the application form that even suggests t&c's are overleaf or in a seperate document.
The best I can do is try to jog your memory and refer to the assistance you gave to 'robcag' - the docs on his thread are identacle to mine!

yeah, those were just examples of where we hit them on Delfi,

Im trying to point out that its the digging you need to do to find the golden nugget that wins you the case

If the document is not "easily legible" then that is not something that gets them over Carey v HSBC, to quote HHJ Worster in Delfis case, "for something to be easily legible, as a matter of common sense, it must be capable of being read"

SO they may struggle there to enforce that document

The second point, if the terms and con are not from 1994 then thats not satisfactory at all.

[fluffystuff]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

Im trying to point out that its the digging you need to do to find the golden nugget that wins you the case - Understood.


The second point, if the terms and con are not from 1994 then thats not satisfactory at all.

On that very point, don't suppose you know of anyone who might be in possession of the orignal terms from 1994 or how I might get them?
I know this question has been asked before elsewhere but no response.



Meanwhile, I have prepared my disclosure list and wonder if you could look over the following to make sure there are no errors. All of these acts/statutes were mentioned in my witness statement but if you think I should include others, please let me know.

Many thanks.

(AA) Civil Procedure Rules, Rules & Practice Directions.
(BB) Consumer Credit Act 1974
(CC) Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)
(DD) Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004
(EE) Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561)
(FF) Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)
(GG) The Administration of Justice Act 1970
(HH) Documents In Court – Civil Evidence Act 1995
(II) Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299
(JJ) Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul)
(KK) Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain & Co – (2001) GCCR 2255)
(LL) Kpohraror v Woolwich buliding Society (1996) 4 All ER 119)

[Shepherdess]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

Hi Fluffystuff,
As t says, minutely check the small rint. Might seem obvious, but easily missed, but also check the T&C's for references to Acts which came into existance after 1994. I have a recon, supposedly from 1998, which mentions a 2004 Act!

S x

[pt2537]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

you do not need to disclose statutes or regulations at all,

Nor do you put cases in your disclosures.


What you put in there is documents in your possession which you intend to rely upon.

[DuffNCustard]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

HFC decided that they would take Mr Duff to Northampton court and get a CCJ

He had a GM Card - took out the agreement back in the early 90's. The HFC office where they filed all these agreements moved and destroyed all the agreements! They cannot produce them .straight up whoosh all up the flue!
So if your strategy is to tear apart the details of the agreements its going to really hard to do - Mr Duff may have his orginal - he is a real hoarder when I get back home I'll ask him.

I'm no way a legal savvy gal but strikes me that if they try to enforce t&cs via the courts then you ought to be able to AUDIT what they are claiming and as this cannot be done because they cannot comply with the CCA request...................

[fluffystuff]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

HFC decided that they would take Mr Duff to Northampton court and get a CCJ

Mr Duff may have his orginal - he is a real hoarder when I get back home I'll ask him.

That would really be the icing on the cake - make sure he has a good look won't you! :beagle:



I'm no way a legal savvy gal but strikes me that if they try to enforce t&cs via the courts then you ought to be able to AUDIT what they are claiming and as this cannot be done because they cannot comply with the CCA request...................Think this is where the Civil Evidence Act comes into play - already mentioned that at the SJ hearing and they (HFC's sols) didn't like it all - funny that!

Thanks so much for stopping by Mrs Duff, will eagerly await the results of the search.

[fluffystuff]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

I was supposed to be in receipt of the claimant's disclosure list by today - why am I not surprised that nothing has arrived !

[Mr Muffet]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

Hi Fluffystuff,
As t says, minutely check the small rint. Might seem obvious, but easily missed, but also check the T&C's for references to Acts which came into existance after 1994. I have a recon, supposedly from 1998, which mentions a 2004 Act!

S x

Oops, I wonder if their proof reader is still employed

[Shepherdess]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

LOL well mine obviously isn't.. I keep missing p's since I swatted a fly on my keyboard and damaged the p key.
My mum always told me to watch my p's and q's too!

[pt2537]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

ok

Carey requires the copy to be a honest and accurate copy,

it does not concern itself with minor spelling mistakes as they are de minimis as detailed in Carey

But if the copy is not honest and accurate, then they cannot succeed, end of, you just need to find the faults

[fluffystuff]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

So, almost a week late, have received claimant's disclosure statement, completed by aforementioned employee of HSBC (s'funny, was HFC on his W/S) under the guise of "External Agents Audit & Process Manager"!

It states he did not search for the following:

documents created by the claimant, or contained on back-up tapes, mobile phones, notebooks, PDA devices, portable data storage media, handheld devices, calendar files, web-based applications & graphic and apresentation files.

He has control of these documents and doesn't object to providing copies:

1. Reconstituted Credit Agreement
2. Terms & Conditions
3. Statement of account
4. Default Notice
5. Collection History Display
6. Caesar printout

He objects to inspection of the following:

All correspondence passing between claimant and it's solicitors, the claimant's solicitors and it's agents and Counsel and all notes of telephone conversations made between the claimant and it's solicitors and all memoranda, briefs, instruction to counsel, counsel's advice, draft statement of case and draft witness statements............... .....

because they are privileged.


Under the last section ( 'I have had the documents numbered and listed below, but they are no longer in my control'), he states:

"All originals of documents as listed above are copies, as contained within the original file opened at the claimant's premises at HFC Bank Ltd."


So, assume next step is for me to request copies of 5 & 6 above? What is a Caeser printout ??

------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Just another couple of questions please -

I assume that this part of the order relates to witness statements?

"There shall be simultaneous exchange of such statements by xx Oct 2010."


If this procedes to trial, at what point will I be calling for HFC's witness to attend hearing and when should they produce their 'Notice of proposal to adduce hearsay evidence'?

In the aq, we did ask for a proof of posting of the D/N which they have not disclosed - can we ask for it again?


Thanks everyone. x

[TomThumb]

Re: Fluffystuff's OH v HFC

So, assume next step is for me to request copies of 5 & 6 above? What is a Caeser printout ??

Ceaser is HSBC's customer database system, it records letters sent/manual interventions etc etc.

S.