Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

[zhanzhibar]

Hi all,

Cut long story short, CL Finance/Howard Cohen put a claim against me for a Debenhams creedit card on 15th Feb2010. As per the usual I sent a CPR 31.14 request on the 7th march 2010. Didn't hear anything from them send the usual defence i.e. the POC is insufficiently particularised & did not comply to CPR 16. I submitted an AQ on 15th April 2010 which include me stating that I still have not received anything.


Received notice from court about the hearing on 24th August & that the claimant should disclose all what I requested:

1. copies of credit agreement
2. the DN
3. Deed of assignment
4. Copies of statement
5. notice of assignment

The notice fr Court also stated that no later than 14 days I have to send witness statement as well as all dicuments I intend to rely upon atthe hearing.

Lo & behold today I received everything I requested from Howard Cohen. Having said that, the account number on that agreement they sent was nothing like the account number they were chasing i.e stated in POCs & DNs.

What happen is that back in 1999 I applied for a Debenham store card but somewhere along 2004 they changed my Debenham storecard to a credit card.

The copy of the agreement they sent me today I think does follows CCA 1974 ( although not quite sure so will scan & put it here later) it got my name, my signature, the %apr all in one page. The only thing I can see that looks a bit weird is the account number stated is not the same as my credit card account i.e I presume it was my store card account that was in the agreement. the other thing is the credit limit. It is clearly handwritten that my credit limit is £400 and yet my credit card has a limit of £1400.

So my question to you guys, because the account (& credit limit) in the agreement not the same as what is in POC or DN could I argue the fact that there is no credit agreement with the account they were chasing & that they still can't produce credit agreement for the account stated in POC?

Zhan

[Amethyst]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

When they changed your storecard to a credit card did you receive a new agreement / new terms etc ?

Also in the terms where the £400 is handwritten is there a para about how the credit limit may be changed from time to time etc kind of thing ?

If there is a clear agreed/acknowledged path for that account changing from the account number on the agreement to the account number being claimed upon then I think they would come out on top. If there is nothing documenting the changeover then I would think that in your/courts eyes the info they have sent you refers to a different account. However I am looking more on the common sense side of things than the intricacys of the CCA.

What account numbers are on the DOA etc ?

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

Thanks Ame for replying.

When they changed your storecard to a credit card did you receive a new agreement / new terms etc ?Nope. Didn't receive nada. No new agreement/terms. Also I think that's why Howard Cohen(HC) sent me the storecard agreement which is back then under GE capital.

Also in the terms where the £400 is handwritten is there a para about how the credit limit may be changed from time to time etc kind of thing ? Unfortunately yes. Section 5 on 2nd page of the copy of the agreement HC sent me (which I will scan & put it uphere later) said that they will determine credit limit from time to time.

If there is a clear agreed/acknowledged path for that account changing from the account number on the agreement to the account number being claimed upon then I think they would come out on top. If there is nothing documenting the changeover then I would think that in your/courts eyes the info they have sent you refers to a different account.
What do you mean a clear agreed path for the changing of the account?I tried to read thoroughly the credit agreement but I can't see in any section them saying about changing of account. Perhaps when I put the agreement up later another pair of fresh eyes could help to see. I supppose the one section they can put about the account changing is in note 16. Alterations to agreement which stated:
(a) Any temporary waiver or indulgence by us in exercising our rights under this agreement shall not prevent us from doing so subsequently
(b)to the extent that it is allowable by law we may make any alteration (not already provided for above)to this agreement by givingyou 7 days written notice.

Now does (b) above include changing account from storecard acc to credit card acc?

However I am looking more on the common sense side of things than the intricacys of the CCA.

What account numbers are on the DOA etc ? the credit card acc

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

HI everyone,
Below is the copy of the agreement (1st page is all my details & 2nd page is the T&Cs) & the DN sent to me, the account number on this agreement bear no resemblant to the credit card account on the DN nor the POCs that they are chasing although both bear the name of Debenham but the agreement below is for a storecard which I no longer have.

I have read through the T&Cs and nothing seems to show that the 2 are related apart from the name being Debenham but maybe fresh eyes will be able to see something that I don't.
I have to submit a witness statement before the 10th as it is 14 days before the court hearing so would really appreciate comments from good people out there.

Zhan

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

bump...could anybody tell me whether the credit agreement above is valid for the credit card acc which actually have different account altogether than that stated on the agreement plus the agreement was for Debenham storecard and not Debenham credit card?

[Mr Muffet]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

The default notice would not have allowed you the full amount of time to remedy the breach. Small point but one that has been successful.

You are entitled by law to a full 14 clear days to remedy the breach. 19.09.2009 was a Saturday. The earliest it could have been put into the postal system would have been the Monday so you were robbed of time before it even enteredt the postal system.

2 days for 1st class post
4 days for 2nd class post or UK Mail.

As I understand it, the regulations require for an actual date to be given. Not just "14 days"

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

thanks for replying mr muffett but the DN stated 14 day after the receipt of the letter which i think is correct? but i could be wrong of coz.wat do others think?

by the way, how do i calculate APR%? i just want to check wat APR% they used in the statement against what they put in the agreement.

[pt2537]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

have they actually disclosed the deed? or have they remained true to fashion and only disclosed the front and back page saying " the deed contains commercially sensistive data which we dont want falling into our competitors hands"?

If they havent given the full deed, then, they must not be allowed to show it to the court

If its relevent then its relevent now and you are entitled to see the evidence against you, infact, it is a fundamental human rights issue if they show the trial judge documents behind your back


so lets be clear on this, do you have the complete deed? a redacted version with lots of edits? or the front and back page only?

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

Hi PT,

Thanks for looking into this. Have visitors all day today so didn't have achance to look at the forum till now..& now I am so very worried that I have not got much to put in the WS.

here is the DOA they sent together with the copy of agreement.












the next page has a one line with my name & credit card account number & then thi spage




& I attached too the notice of assignment they sent;






My witness statement at the moment has only one point the account number on the copy of agreement is not the same account number in POCS, DNs, DOA etc but I am not sure whether this is a valid point or not.


Please, please would appreciate any input for me to put together my WS that I got to submit by 10th August as my hearing is 24th..pls?

[pt2537]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

i find it strange that there is no reference to the amount owing, that is strange, the deed would normally say the debt being assisgned

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

Hi PT,

Actually after the page that said "See attached" there was another page with my name, credit card acc number and the amount of £1,424.68. I didn't scan it in here as it was just a big blank page with a one line info.

I take it this is a valid DOA?

So am just wondering whether do I still have a one valid defence (if it is) about the store card account in the credit agreement & the credit card account and that's it? I want to check the APR in the statement, is there a way?

[TomThumb]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

I find it strange that the attorney representing Santandar was also the attorney representing CL Finance, his being the only signatures on the document....

Also isnt there some ruling under the companies act that a director has to sign a legal sale document? Not my forte but I seem to remember Donkey and VJ were getting excited when looking at a deed on a HFO deed.


and wtf is "Salami Week" all about ;-)

S.

[pt2537]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

i think that we need the agreement referred to within that deed

we need to know what the definitions are etc, as it is a concern for me that there is many references to "Loan terms and conditions" and this is not a loan, its running account credit

As matters stand, i cannot say if that is a valid deed or not

Can i check, is that "The" notice you received or a recon of it?

[zhanzhibar]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

i think that we need the agreement referred to within that deed

when you say the agreement, do you mean the agreement for account number 60000560xxx i.e the storecard acc? I don't have any agreement for the credit card acc 2561XXXX but the crdit card acc is 561xxxx is the one referred to in the DOA

Can i check, is that "The" notice you received or a recon of it?

Unfortunately it is "The" notice I received. Again the NOA referred to credit card acc 2561xxxx and not as per stated in the copy of the agreement above which stated my storecard account number of 60000560xxxx.

[pt2537]

Re: Another court case - hearing on the 24th August..HELP!

no the deed as we call it, isnt a deed, well it is, but its a supplemental deed, so there is a main agreement somewhere that needs to come outta the woodwork so we can see the definitions used and compare them with the deed we have to see if it holds water