BW LEGAL Claim

[colin_s]

Received a claim? Yes/No: Yes
Issue Date: 8/8/2019
Have you Acknowledged the Claim?: Yes
Total Amount Claimed : 1400
Claimant’s Name: PRAC Financial
Solicitors Firm: BW Legal
Original Creditor: Instant Cash Loans TA PayDay UK
Original Debt (eg. Credit card/Loan/Overdraft) : Payday loan
Particulars of Claim: : The usual POC as posted here numerous times. It does give an account number and assignment date in Dec 2016, and that that was notified to me, the relevence of which will be clear below
Is the debt Statute Barred (have you had any contact with the creditor or claimant over the last 6 years?): No
List any letters you have sent (eg: CCA/ CPR ): A few emails, including a SAR request on the 24th July.
Any Other Information or Background Details:

Sorry to bother people with this, but Ive searched and can't actually find a similar case with these or any other company.

So back in July I got a letter before claim from these. I must admit I made a mistake here and didn't read it properly. Instead of using the forms attached, I emailed them, telling them I had no knowledge of this debt, had never heard of them, didn't owe them any money and requested a SAR at the same time.

They replied to my email 2 days later asking for my postcode, to which I replied with it and told them I had included it in my original email, so didn't know why they were asking for it. I got a reply after that stating they meant date of birth, which I replied to within the hour.

On about the 11th of this month I got a claim from the court.

I rang them to ask why they had sent a claim when they were fully aware I was disputing the debt and was told, it was with the courts now and just tell the court.

I've also had an email stating my email was only read after the claim was issued, which was a lie, as they replied to my email on the 26th July, the claim wasn't issued until the 8th August. I am still waiting for them to comply with the SAR.

Now the problem.

I don't owe them this money. I have never had a payday loan in my life.
Over the phone they gave me an address the loan was taken out at and the bank it was paid into. I have never lived at that address and I have never banked with the bank.

Although the claim states an amount owing of just over £1000 and ONE account reference, I have it in writing from them that it was actually 2 accounts with 2 different account numbers, the balances totaling the claim amount.

They also state 'We note that you were sent multiple letters prior to this stage and had ample opportunity to resolve this matter before it progressed to the legal stage.'
The first letter I got was the letter before claim.

They also implied if it wasn't me I should contact the police. The problem with this is, theres no evidence this is fraudulent. I know for a fact there is someone else living in the same city as me with the same name and date of birth. As whoever took the loan out hasn't used my address, banking details, previous addresses or anything (as nothing appeared on my credit file until these placed a default a few weeks ago), I don't see how it could be a fraudulent application, it may well have been, but they didn't defraud me or use my details. It was also in 2014 so hardly think the police will go flying round to question anyone at the address!

I am surmising what has happened is, someone has taken loans out, and skipped out on paying them. I have noticed a couple of tracing enquiries on my credit file, suggesting they have been searching for someone with the same name and DOB, put 2 and 2 together and made 5. To back this up, I have also had 2 letters in the past week from 2 other debt collection firms, chasing payday loan debts. However, they aren't urgent at the moment. I have requested a SAR from both.

My problem now is, how do I defend this? I have seen defences from people who owe the money, who admit to owing part the money, and an odd one from people who had the loans taken out in their name, fraudulently. However I haven't seen anyone the same as this so pretty stuck on how to proceed. They have also put 2 defaults on my credit file which I would very much like removing!

My first thought was just write a defence saying 'I do not owe this money, please prove it' but thought I better get some advice instead

Any help would be very welcome

Thank you very much for any help anyone can give.

[jaguarsuk]

1. Acknowledge Claim
2. CPR 31.14 Request
3. CCA Request
4. Subject Access Request Letter to the original lender

You do need to report it to action fraud, it may be as you have said and it may not, but without reporting it the other side are just going to say you are tryiing to avoid the debt, not genuinely haven't taken it.

[colin_s]

1. Acknowledge Claim
2. CPR 31.14 Request
3. CCA Request
4. Subject Access Request Letter to the original lender

You do need to report it to action fraud, it may be as you have said and it may not, but without reporting it the other side are just going to say you are tryiing to avoid the debt, not genuinely haven't taken it.

Thank you for replying.
I've done 1 and 4 already, plus a SAR to PAC a month ago tomorrow, which I know they won't comply with in the timescale.
I will do 2 and 3 tomorrow.

As I very much doubt they will supply any information before my defence has to be entered, what sort of thing should I say if it gets to that point without them supplying anything?

I am extremely uncomfortable reporting it to actionfraud though, without knowing it is fraud. For all I know it is a legitimate loan taken out by someone else with the same name and date of birth.

I do understand what you are saying, but surely they can't walk into a court room and say 'it was him' without providing any evidence it was in fact me, especially considering I am disputing it? I have never lived at the address the loan was taken out at, the email address isn't mine, the telephone number isn't mine, the bank account isn't mine, and I am 100% sure when I get the evidence, the signature won't be mine, and any ID they supplied, won't be mine. If they supply evidence that shows my identity has been stolen, or anything like that, then I would go to the police immediately.

[jaguarsuk]

As I very much doubt they will supply any information before my defence has to be entered, what sort of thing should I say if it gets to that point without them supplying anything?

You would use the relevant bits of the Example Defence

I am extremely uncomfortable reporting it to actionfraud though, without knowing it is fraud. For all I know it is a legitimate loan taken out by someone else with the same name and date of birth.

You don't know it isn't fraud and for all you know you are the victim of identity theft. It's your claim and you should manage it how you wish, but if you don't report it the claimant will not accept you have not applied for and had this loan.

I do understand what you are saying, but surely they can't walk into a court room and say 'it was him' without providing any evidence it was in fact me, especially considering I am disputing it?

They only have to show a loan was signed for by a person stating your name, they then only have to evidence that default notice was sent by the original lender and then when it was sold to them that there was a notice sent to inform you of the sale.

I have never lived at the address the loan was taken out at, the email address isn't mine, the telephone number isn't mine, the bank account isn't mine

Are all things someone trying to get out of paying something they owe would say, but yet you're not reporting it as fraud despite all that. Their argument will be if you are saying that it's not you then you need to prove it, if you're not willing to report it as fraud then clearly it isn't fraud and therefore you must have entered into this agreement, but are only disputing it to try to get out of paying what you owe.

I am 100% sure when I get the evidence, the signature won't be mine, and any ID they supplied, won't be mine. If they supply evidence that shows my identity has been stolen, or anything like that, then I would go to the police immediately.

Most loans are signed for now online, so there won't be a signature just a typed name and tick in a box. You don't supply ID for an online application unless the lender can't find you on the electoral roll.

It's not for them to supply evidence your identity has been stolen, all they need to provide is evidence of the loan and get a judgement. Once they have a judgement they will enforce it. They don't care about you or what might have happened, they just want their money!

Like I say, it's your claim and you manage it how you think is best. Good luck.

[colin_s]

Thank you for replying again

I have printed the 2 letters off this morning and will get a postal order this afternoon and get them both posted off

I do understand what you are saying and do appreciate it, I just don't understand how a court can accept that a debt can belong to someone without any proof it belongs to them. If my name was John Smith and there were 5 people in the UK with the same name and DOB, if I take a loan out and don't pay it, surely they can't just take another John Smith to court and get a judgement for my debt. There would be no fraud in that case. I'll speak to action fraud later though

[jaguarsuk]

Thank you for replying again

I have printed the 2 letters off this morning and will get a postal order this afternoon and get them both posted off

I do understand what you are saying and do appreciate it, I just don't understand how a court can accept that a debt can belong to someone without any proof it belongs to them. If my name was John Smith and there were 5 people in the UK with the same name and DOB, if I take a loan out and don't pay it, surely they can't just take another John Smith to court and get a judgement for my debt. There would be no fraud in that case. I'll speak to action fraud later though

The likelihood of there being someone of the same name as you, with the same date of birth as you and living in the same town as you are really slim and that's where the onus is on you to prove this is not your loan.

Unless you can get the other person to admit to taking it, which they won't or else they'll find themselves on the end of a claim, then from their point of view this loan is yours. It's in your name, someone of your name signed it and they also have your date of birth as well. There's no way of you proving the bank account isn't yours and in any event currently I could put your name as the name on my bank account and still receive money into it posing as you.

Reporting it as fraud to try to get out of paying the debt would itself be committing the offence of fraud, but by reporting it you are showing the claimant that what you are saying is truthful and that you haven't took this loan, you don't care if the police investigate it because they won't find that it's you who had the money.

Have you had the same bank account for a number of years? If so get a letter from the bank stating the opening date of it and a statement from the month they claim the loan was taken to demonstrate that the account the loan was paid to isn't yours and you never got any loan money in the one that is yours.

Once you have everything all together we'll file the defence, but you don't submit evidence with the defence and usually you wouldn't do that until 14 dyas before a hearing. In this instance you'll write to the claimant and disclose early to them with the caveat that they should discontinue or else you'll file to strike out the claim at their cost.

[colin_s]

The likelihood of there being someone of the same name as you, with the same date of birth as you and living in the same town as you are really slim and that's where the onus is on you to prove this is not your loan.

Unless you can get the other person to admit to taking it, which they won't or else they'll find themselves on the end of a claim, then from their point of view this loan is yours. It's in your name, someone of your name signed it and they also have your date of birth as well. There's no way of you proving the bank account isn't yours and in any event currently I could put your name as the name on my bank account and still receive money into it posing as you.

Reporting it as fraud to try to get out of paying the debt would itself be committing the offence of fraud, but by reporting it you are showing the claimant that what you are saying is truthful and that you haven't took this loan, you don't care if the police investigate it because they won't find that it's you who had the money.

Have you had the same bank account for a number of years? If so get a letter from the bank stating the opening date of it and a statement from the month they claim the loan was taken to demonstrate that the account the loan was paid to isn't yours and you never got any loan money in the one that is yours.

Once you have everything all together we'll file the defence, but you don't submit evidence with the defence and usually you wouldn't do that until 14 dyas before a hearing. In this instance you'll write to the claimant and disclose early to them with the caveat that they should discontinue or else you'll file to strike out the claim at their cost.

Thank you very much

Just before I post these, and if you are still online, can I quickly ask, the CCA letter. In the claim & Letter Before Claim, they state one agreement number, but I have an email from them stating there are actually two, listing both numbers. In the claim they have lumped both agreements together and are claiming they are one debt, when in fact they are 2 different ones (confirmed in writing via email).

Should I just request the CCA mentioned in the claim, or should I request both? On top of that, if both, should I enclose 2 x £1 postal orders, a £2 postal order or does the £1 cover both, seeing as they have only sent the claim for one of them? Woudl it require 2 different letters or can I ask for both in one letter? Also, further down the line, when the CCA for the one mentioned shows to be a completely different (about half) amount to the claim, could we try to get it struck out on the grounds they have falsified the amount owing or something, which might be easier than going the other route?

I'm also sending them a 7 day notice for not complying with the SAR request, can I put that in the same envelope?

[jaguarsuk]

Thank you very much

Just before I post these, and if you are still online, can I quickly ask, the CCA letter. In the claim & Letter Before Claim, they state one agreement number, but I have an email from them stating there are actually two, listing both numbers. In the claim they have lumped both agreements together and are claiming they are one debt, when in fact they are 2 different ones (confirmed in writing via email).

Should I just request the CCA mentioned in the claim, or should I request both? On top of that, if both, should I enclose 2 x £1 postal orders, a £2 postal order or does the £1 cover both, seeing as they have only sent the claim for one of them? Woudl it require 2 different letters or can I ask for both in one letter? Also, further down the line, when the CCA for the one mentioned shows to be a completely different (about half) amount to the claim, could we try to get it struck out on the grounds they have falsified the amount owing or something, which might be easier than going the other route?

I'm also sending them a 7 day notice for not complying with the SAR request, can I put that in the same envelope?

Yes request both by sending two seperate CCA letters with two seperate fees, also on the front of each Postal Order make sure you write "CCA 1974 STAT FEE ONLY." Take copies of the letters and postal orders for your records.

In The CPR 31.14 letter request the one agreement they list in their particulars of claim.

Essentially to prove their claim they are going to have to come up with 3 agreements not just one or even two.

We can move to strike out the claim, but you should be aware it costs you £255 to apply (you'd get this back off the claimant if successful) and applications risks costs being awarded against you if not sucessful.

It's best not to prejudge what might be returned, so lets see what they come up with and what info you can come up with to support your position, then we'll go form there.

[The Reverend]

.. I just don't understand how a court can accept that a debt can belong to someone without any proof it belongs to them. If my name was John Smith and there were 5 people in the UK with the same name and DOB, if I take a loan out and don't pay it, surely they can't just take another John Smith to court and get a judgement for my debt.

BW Legal are primarily a debt collector. Their business is to make money. They are well-known in private parking forums for raising claims with little knowledge of the claim's merit. They don't care if the debt is yours or not: they just want your money! Yes, it is very unfair that you have to jump through hoops to defend this claim. Sometimes life, and the law, is unfair. I recommend you put your emotions aside and deal with this by the numbers. BW are the enemy and, to quote Michael Corleone, "Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement."

[GBExile]

I think you will find the debt is actually not owned by PRAC in any case. Or even owned by Instant Cash Loans Ltd.

The same was as Payday Express (Express Finance Bromley Ltd) there has been no assignment of the loan from Payday Uk Ltd (now struck off companies house) to Instant Cash Loans Ltd.

Cough (tax avoidance/evasion).

Any assignment after the Dec 2014 from Payday UK Ltd to Instant Cash Loans Ltd would be false.

[colin_s]

Yes request both by sending two seperate CCA letters with two seperate fees, also on the front of each Postal Order make sure you write "CCA 1974 STAT FEE ONLY." Take copies of the letters and postal orders for your records.

In The CPR 31.14 letter request the one agreement they list in their particulars of claim.

Essentially to prove their claim they are going to have to come up with 3 agreements not just one or even two.

We can move to strike out the claim, but you should be aware it costs you £255 to apply (you'd get this back off the claimant if successful) and applications risks costs being awarded against you if not sucessful.

It's best not to prejudge what might be returned, so lets see what they come up with and what info you can come up with to support your position, then we'll go form there.

Hiya

Thanks for your replies (and to everything else)

My defence is due in a couple of days I think, but moneyclaim seems to be down at the moment so I can't check (cc claim is dated 8/8 though) (edit acknowledgement of claim was put in on the 16th)

On Saturday I got the information requested. They sent 2 x credit agreements that just had my surname as the signature, typed.
All post was sent to another address I haven't lived at previously, until June, when suddenly they started sending them to me, but no notes or anything to say why.

There are no default notices included in the bundle of SAR documents, nor any assignment of debt, nor notes to say when they were sent.
The credit agreements are with Express Finance (Bromley) T/A Payday Express (not mentioned on the claim form but included in the amount claimed) and the second being MEM Consumer finance ltd, and Payday UK. The claim states the monies due are from a loan agreement between the defendant and Instant Cash Loans t/a PaydayUK. Neither agreement is signed by the creditor.

Any help on where to go from here please? Obviously any other information you require just let me know

On another note, I'm not getting email notifications of any replies on here, is that something I can enable does anyone know please?

[colin_s]

I think you will find the debt is actually not owned by PRAC in any case. Or even owned by Instant Cash Loans Ltd.

The same was as Payday Express (Express Finance Bromley Ltd) there has been no assignment of the loan from Payday Uk Ltd (now struck off companies house) to Instant Cash Loans Ltd.

Cough (tax avoidance/evasion).

Any assignment after the Dec 2014 from Payday UK Ltd to Instant Cash Loans Ltd would be false.

Thank you, any link or anything to let me read more about it please?

[colin_s]

One more post, the FCA handbook states this

https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/7/14.html

(1)

A firm must suspend any steps it takes or its agent takes in the recovery of a debt from a customer where the customer disputes the debt on valid grounds or what may be valid grounds.

Valid grounds for disputing a debt include that:

1. (1)
   
   the individual being pursued for the debt is not the true borrower or hirer under the agreement in question; or

I clearly told them 2 weeks before they issued the claim I didn't know what the debt was and it wasn't mine, surely then, they should have stopped recovery and not issued the claim?

It also states

Where there is a dispute as to the identity of the borrower or hirer or as to the amount of the debt, it is for the firm (and not the customer) to establish, as the case may be, that the customer is the correct person in relation to the debt or that the amount is the correct amount owed under the agreement.

so surely then it isn't up to me to prove I'm not the customer, rather them to prove I am ((which they can't)?

[MIKE770]

They can bring a case to court anytime - whether they win is another matter, do not read to much in the statement above it is a guideline, look around many a site and see the real way these people operate,

[MIKE770]

FCA are good on somethings but do not back things up on others, also you have to make an complaint to the FOS as FCA will not look into anything initially but file a complaint in case they get inundated with certain complaints