Pre action order relating to injury claim.

[des8]

OK, so they have not complied with pre action protocol.
That is not fatal to their case but may be taken into account when the court determines costs at the end of the case.

Regarding their application , presumably you will oppose it on the grounds that you have already responded to their pre action requests as far as you are able, and in spite of your requests they have not provided sufficient detail of the possible claim for you to provide more information.
You'll need to file & serve a witness statement.

please remember however, that you have been advised on a number of occasions to seek professional advice as this case, if it goes forward, will be allocated to the fast track.
Knowledge of court procedure and the rules is important at this level as no leeway is given to litigants in person.
Get it wrong, and even if you win, there could be adverse cost implications

[steveeasy]

Hi Manxman,
Ouch. yes you are right. we should have had insurance in place. we did prior and do now. Actually I am worried thats why I am trying to address the matter. Sometimes the tide is so strong you can only try to stay afloat. Given our business was almost destroyed by consiquences beyond my control. see the parliamentary ombudsman website regarding Defra funding maladministration. we have done well.

In 2021 we were voted best small venue out of 185 venues quite an achievement for a venue in deprived region 3, 000 members voted. so not too bad for a couple of misfits.
Regarding legal advice. this forum is a godsend to many people who cant access legal advice.

If in the 20 or 30 years we have been running this type of business and never had a claim why would I know about three years. Yes I have considered legal advice. I genuinly think id struggle to get decent advice and it would cost a lot more than I could loose in what is described a minor/superficial injury. that is the only piece of evidence provided and by us. what does that tell you about the claimants solicitor who is trying to get his client some form of compensation. ?

The pre action disclosure application was done to fish for negligence before they do anything that costs them money. dont they call it a cash cow. not deamed to be very well accepted I think.

Many thanks
Steveeasy

[steveeasy]

OK, so they have not complied with pre action protocol.
That is not fatal to their case but may be taken into account when the court determines costs at the end of the case.

Regarding their application , presumably you will oppose it on the grounds that you have already responded to their pre action requests as far as you are able, and in spite of your requests they have not provided sufficient detail of the possible claim for you to provide more information.
You'll need to file & serve a witness statement.

please remember however, that you have been advised on a number of occasions to seek professional advice as this case, if it goes forward, will be allocated to the fast track.
Knowledge of court procedure and the rules is important at this level as no leeway is given to litigants in person.
Get it wrong, and even if you win, there could be adverse cost implications

Hi Des8,
Thanks for this further advice. Ive just submitted a a witness statement and supporting evidence.
I am opposing it on the basis.
No requests have ever been recieved for any information other than those in original letter of claim. these 2 have been fully complied with. secondly no detail of injury, financial loss or anything at all has ever been provided and pre action protocol 5.2 and 5.3 does state sufficiant detail should be provided if possible. 3 as we discussed there is the matter they state they have never heard from us in thier witness statement. I have provided 12 attachments of letters responding to them of which most of them are chasing them.

I would like to get legal advice but dont think I would be able to find suitable help. lost confidence im affraid. I do appreciate your help in the matter.

Steveeasy

[steveeasy]

If you don't mind my saying so, you seem pretty sanguine and unconcerned about this. You run a business which involves admitting members of the public to your premises, you let your public liability insurance lapse, somebody makes a personal injury claim against you, and you think they won't want to hear that you aren't insured...

Again if you don't mind my saying so, have you considered seeking legal advice? Obviously I don't know anything about the circumstances of this alleged accident or any claim against you (and indeed it would appear you don't know much more about it either) but if you aren't aware that personal injury claims can be issued up to three years after an accident, perhaps it isn't prudent for you to be relying on your own interpretation of civil procedure rules and whether or not you think the plaintiff is complying with them?

Sorry - I'm not trying to appear critical or superior or anything, it's just that you seem very unworried about this - especially as you are not really certain what the incident was. But obviously you must have a better feel for what did - or did not - happen than I do.

Hi Manxman,
Ive read your post again and I think you were just making good points. thanks for this. Of course ive no idea how this could escalate. my understanding is its just a pre action disclosure application. cost to defendant if we dont comply. 7 days to provide what we have. thats what the application says, can they change all that in the hearing . hope not but i dont know.

I do know no good comes from denieing the obvious. so if the claimant has a valid claim we would try and settle it prior to any escalation as the solicitor wants hours on it. thats righrt though. he wants costs . so if they would tell us the facts we would be able to try and resolve the matter. we cant if they dont want too. Actually its an abuse the way they are acting. if thats ok then there is little help.
steveeasy

[steveeasy]

Ok witness statement done and submitted. Our paramedics have a record of an incident. so something happened. the claimants wont rell us anything at all. we have asked the question several times.

I know the best course of action is to settle the matter. the claimant solicitor has stated he will stop the pre action disclosure if we admit liability. cost 308. tempting but he has never told us anything about the incident or the claim in monetary terms. so wed be mad surely. but its mad to play his game.

The hearing is for an order pre app disclosure. 7 days to provide info. defendant to pay costs if we dont comply. well we would but only what we have which is not much. can have a locus report on an incident we have no details on. its not possible.

Can this hearing be posponed for more time as its only 30 mins and no ref to us taking part. remember we have never responded according to them. this is where I think we need a barrister or lawyer. as the facts are crucial. Ive also read fishing for evidence is not really accepted.

What does anyone suggest please.
Thank you
Steveeasy

[steveeasy]

Ok recieved this
I refer to your email below together with your letter dated 3 January 2022 attached although we do not understand why it is marked ‘without prejudice’. Is this information which you would not be willing to be made available before the judge?

We must advise you that as you have expressed an intention to handle this matter without legal assistance and given that an application has been made against you, we will be seeking costs associated with the application unless you are able now to confirm by return of email/post that you will be prepared to consent to an order for disclosure of the documentation which has been requested within the application and witness statement of Ian Hass, or alternatively say why not.

Please note that we only need to persuade the court of the requirement for you to disclose any of the documents listed in our request following which the costs will follow the event I.e. You will be liable to pay the costs of the application and the barrister's fee.

We enclose N260 Costs Schedule.

This email will be placed before the court on the question of costs in the event that you do not agree to the above. the costs are 1760


then we recieved this.
WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Dear Miss Clark

Further to your Without Prejudice letter dated 3 January 2022, we can confirm that we have provided details of our client's claim in the Letter of Claim sent to you on several occasions.

It is customary for you as a Defendant to respond to the Letter of Claim in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocol within three months confirming whether you intend to admit liability or deny liability for the accident.

As we have heard nothing further from you, we have had to assume that liability is denied.

You have sent to us a précis of what you say has been passed to you by the paramedics but you have not confirmed your position on liability and therefore we have no option other than to go through the court.

We now enclose a copy of our client's medical evidence on the basis that you say that you wish to settle the claim without the need for the matter to progress by court proceedings.

For the avoidance of doubt, if you do not admit liability by return of email then we will progress the matter by way of court proceedings.



They have had the medical report for nearly two years now they have decided to show us it.

[steveeasy]

We now enclose a copy of our client's medical evidence on the basis that you say that you wish to settle the claim without the need for the matter to progress by court proceedings. the medical report was done in February 2020. they have withheld it for nearly 2 years.

It is customary for you as a Defendant to respond to the Letter of Claim in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocol within three months confirming whether you intend to admit liability or deny liability for the accident.

As we have heard nothing further from you, we have had to assume that liability is denied.


this was our letter of claim as sent by email. not even addressed to the defendant. it was not opened.

Please see the attached.

Please note that at this time, due to the unprecedented measures which have been recommended by the UK government at a national level because of COVID-19, Ellis Hass are continuing to offer a full service to all of their clients and colleagues to the best of our ability. There may be some restrictions on our ability to process certain types of work but we shall endeavour to overcome this as best we can whilst ensuring the safety of our clients, staff and colleagues. We would ask that all correspondence is, if possible, sent by email at the current time. Thank you for your understanding.


Kind Regards,
Alka Khalid
Trainee Solicitor
Ellis Hass & Co Solicitors

[steveeasy]

So they want me to follow pre action protocol. cos i did not see the email with the letter of claim. they have withheld details of the incident for 2 years. now at last min offer to withdraw if I respond instantly. or else. the medical report they have had before they sent the letter of claim. and we have no drains in the car park at all or nothing like one.

Steveeasy

[steveeasy]

Ok Ive been told im not worried. I am trying to do the right things.

So when I get a record of an incident I pass it on the same day. It does not help my defense but it helps proove im honest I hope.

So why does a claimant solicitor get a medical report in Feb 2020 and not pass it on to me when ive repeatedly asked for evidence. anything. then I get told I must respond by return .he has kept it for 2 years and not provided us with it or anything.
You have told me the claimant does not have to follow pre action protocol. it wont probally affect his claim. I appreciate that. but how can we really be asked to admit liability when we have not evwen been told in detail how it happened.

Its all the wrong way round. detail the accident. then the loss and financial remedy they seek. if you cant agree you go to court. They have withheld the detail and now will hit us avoiding what is set out in pre action protocol.

Makes no sense unless your trying to get higher costs.
Steveeasy

[des8]

I don't think you realise what you are up against

The claim should be dealt with under the Pre-Action Protocol for Low Value Personal Injury (Employers’ Liability and Public Liability) Claims.
on the basis it is for less than £25,000.
However if you lose, as the case will be allocated to the fast track, you will be faced with an adverse costs order which could be substantial and even exceed the amount of any award

There is no point saying it makes no sense, when possibly it is because you don't understand the process.
The Court Procedure Rules aren't obviously straight forward to the lay person, and many of the terms used have specific meanings.

You really need professional advice

[islandgirl]

Been following this for a while and as a business owner I would be terrified of the potential awards against me. I still do not understand why the insurer was not liable but apparently that has been discussed. However there is a potential HUGE loss heading your way! Things might not seem fair or logical but the law works in mysterious ways....I echo Des8 - go and get advice before it is too late!

[steveeasy]

OK thank you for the responses. I have messaged 10 barristers this morning from the register to find one to represent us at the pre application hearing. No response yet.

No its not logical in my mind. the claimant has kept that report under his coat for 2 years. Pre action protocol suggests well otherwise.
I see no point in paying 5,000 to a solicitor to then still pay the same amount. we dont dispute an accident happened, just we have nothing to go on. so unless it is the best scam ever it happened.

One thing you might help me with is. if the award is 25000 and 25000 costs and we wont be able to pay, its a fact. no parents to bail my partner out. nothing. do they have to do a payment plan or is it bailiffs, we might as well just close the business now and move. Venue of the year. what a bloody joke.

[steveeasy]

Been following this for a while and as a business owner I would be terrified of the potential awards against me. I still do not understand why the insurer was not liable but apparently that has been discussed. However there is a potential HUGE loss heading your way! Things might not seem fair or logical but the law works in mysterious ways....I echo Des8 - go and get advice before it is too late!

Its my partners business. she let the insurance lapse. apparantly a policeman of all people fell in a drain that is not in the car park. we had paramedics on site for every show. he was treated. minor injury. no name taken. we were not told. 8 months later letter of claim . then they refuse to provide any details until we recieve medical report on Tuesday and told to reply accepting liability by return or we will have to pay 1725 for the hearing on 28 jan. pre action disclosure.
thanks for your int3erest and help.
stephen

[des8]

OK, beginning to understand your position more now further details of the situation are revealed.

The insurance might have lapsed, but if it was on a claims occurring basis cover might still have been in force

[steveeasy]

OK, beginning to understand your position more now further details of the situation are revealed.

The insurance might have lapsed, but if it was on a claims occurring basis cover might still have been in force

Hi Des8,
Thanks. ive asked my partner the question and hope to find out tomorrow. Ive mentioned before but its quite confusing my account of things. we had liability insurance with South Essex insurance brokers.

I hope im not coming over to crazy , im trying to get the matter settled. the quicker i can do this the lower the fees I suspect. of course that might not be logical either. Im reading up now to find out what happens if you cant pay judgements. can the court set up payment plans. its not the end of the world if they dont. nothing is the end of the world my family re fine. but be better to understand what will happen when we get a huge judgement to pay. there is nothing to pay with. its how it is. no pension, no insurance payouts nothing. no house. sometimes its easier to have nothing then you have little to worry about. apart from your family