Pre action order relating to injury claim.

[des8]

Never accuse people of lying in court but suggest they are mistaken.

At this stage they don't have to give anything but the barest details to enable you identify the incident that might give rise to a claim.

Back in November I thought they had asked for disclosure.
In post 10 you stated "defendant to disclose information. that being management and maintanance details of premises.locus records "
I assume you didn't comply with that request, hence the court application..

[steveeasy]

Never accuse people of lying in court but suggest they are mistaken.

At this stage they don't have to give anything but the barest details to enable you identify the incident that might give rise to a claim.

Back in November I thought they had asked for disclosure.
In post 10 you stated "defendant to disclose information. that being management and maintanance details of premises.locus records "
I assume you didn't comply with that request, hence the court application..

Hi Des8,
No that is not the case. in march 2021 I wrote to them. They responded by stating they would file a claim. 4 weeks later we recieved from them an unstamped court paper refering to a pre action disclosure application. They have never requested any information or disclosure ever. The pre action disclosure has only now been given a hearing date. I did recieve from them confirmation of this hearing date in November 2021.

I wrote again to them on monday. the response was they have yet to recieve a response from us. I even sent them a copy of our paramedic accident report. highlighting an incident we did not know about. We have requested further drtail on this. the response from paramedic was it was so minor they did not take the persons name or provide such. the solicitors ignored this.

My thoughts were if something happened its hard to defend such so find out what they want and agree a settlement. they dont want that do they nor an paramedic reporting it was minor requiring no treatment at all.

Thank you for taking time to respond.
Steveeasy

[steveeasy]

Locus report. an report on an incident to identify how it has happen. is it by third party ?. we do not know where the incident took place. in a car park. we have 2 car parks. there are no man hole drains or covers in either of them. so how could we provide a locus report on something we have not yet been told about. My understanding of letter of claim, is that although not black and white given time and the scale of injury they should by now have indicated some level of finacial loss. how the injury has impacted the claimant and level of injury something for the defendant to determine the scale of the claim. Nothing at all other than threats of legal action and yes bailiffs early on.

[des8]

If there is no drain or manhole or whatever in the car parks I suggest you have a look at The Criminal Justice and Courts act 2015. sec 57.

You really need to get your own solicitor on to this

[steveeasy]

If there is no drain or manhole or whatever in the car parks I suggest you have a look at The Criminal Justice and Courts act 2015. sec 57.

You really need to get your own solicitor on to this

Hi Des8,
No there are not at all any drains on or in either car park at all, There are drains in other areas on a grass area. My point is up to today all ive been told is what you may have read in the scanned doc. the letter of claim. It says the client was walking across car park and fell in to a drain. Thats why I keep asking them for further details.


I will read section 57.
Thank you for your time much appreciated.
Steveeasy

[Manxman]

Apologies for asking this, but I still don't understand why your insurers at the date of the accident back in August 2019 aren't dealing with this?

I know you have since changed insurers and that your old insurers have told you that they would only deal with claims submitted within 3 months, but they can't do that, can they?

Certainly my understanding is that if somebody has cause to make a "retrospective" claim against buildings insurance or motor insurance, then it is the insurer at the time of the cause of action arising who is responsible for dealing with it. Is public liability insurance - which I assume this is - significantly different in this respect?

If public liability insurance is significantly different in this respect, then surely businesses like the defendant here, which holds events to which the public have access, are on a hiding to nothing if personal injury claims can be made up to three years after the event? (Unless your current insurer should be dealing with it - which seems wrong to me?)

[EDIT: Have you ever formally passed this claim onto your old insurers and have they formally confirmed that they are not liable to cover it?]



@STEVEEASY - I think you also need to go back and redact your PDF that you posted. It appears to give the name and address of your "activity centre" together with your name or your colleagues' names

[Manxman]

Further to my previous post, I've just read all this again and in #9 you were asked by DES8 to supply details of your old insurance policy so it could be checked, but you don't appear to have done so? Can you? It seems odd to me that you are not covered by your insurer at the time of the incident...

ISLANDGIRL also alluded to this in #2 and #6...

[des8]

Public liability policies are written either on a "claims made" or "claims occurring" basis.

"Claims made" means the policy will pay out for any valid claim made during the policy period, regardless of when the incident actually occurred . It does not pat after the policy has lapsed.
"Claims occurring" means the policy will only pay out for claims that arise out of incidents that actually happen during the policy period. It covers claims for incidents that only come to light much later.no matter when the claim is made.

Clerks in claims management companies (which insurers tend to use now a days) don't always understand policy wordings!

[Manxman]

Thank you DES8.

So if you are a business that requires PL insurance, it is absolutely crucial when changing insurers that - if your current policy is a "claims made" one - you do not follow it with a "claims occurring" one, otherwise there will be a "gap" in your PL cover? (ie you really need to replace like with like).

That's a new one on me. I hope business owners are aware of this!

I'm well aware that many front-line insurance staff don't understand the policies they provide (or manage claims on). That's why I'm wondering if STEVEEASY followed the earlier advice from ISLANDGIRL to re-confirm formally with his old insurer that they definitely are not covered by them. Or, as you suggested, post up the relevant T&Cs of the old policy.

Thanks again.

[des8]

To avoid the gap in cover if changing insurers any decent broker will point out the danger and arrange run off cover.

The uninitiated will probably not be aware of the problem

[Manxman]

Yes - I would expect a decent broker to point out the potential problem. That's why if I were STEVEEASY and it was never mentioned to me when changing insurers, I'd be double- and triple-checking that I really wasn't covered!

[steveeasy]

However. Since providing a letter of claim to us in March 2020. we have received not one single piece
of information to determine where specifically the incident took place. No drains, holes, or covers in either of two car parks. we have never been given any info regarding financial loss. the injuries. how they have effected the person nothing.

Pre action protocol states the following.

5.2 The Letter of Claim should include the information described on the template at Annexe B1. The level of detail will need to be varied to suit the particular circumstances. In all cases there should be sufficient information for the defendant to assess liability and to enable the defendant to estimate the likely size and heads of the claim without necessarily addressing quantum in detail.
5.3 The letter should contain a clear summary of the facts on which the claim is based together with an indication of the nature of any injuries suffered, and the way in which these impact on the claimant’s day to day functioning and prognosis. Any financial loss incurred by the claimant should be outlined with an indication of the heads of damage to be claimed and the amount of that loss, unless this is
impracticable

ve been asking the claimants solicitors for 2 years why thier client did not visit our onsite paramedics. No response ever. So we asked the paramedics to search again and found this.

I asked the paramedic company that specialise in providing medical cover for a range of events to search the date again. This came up

Male aged 49 stepped on manhole cover 21.05. Cover gave way and patient fell resulting in graze to lower left arm and slight bruising to left thigh. Treatment given – Cleaned and dressed graze with dressing, no treatment necessary for bruise.
I suspect this is the report made of your clients treatment. We asked if there was a name.

This was recorded as a minor injury as it was superficial, we do not record personal information for minor injuries.
We asked for further details.
I have messaged the medic and he cannot remember the incident, indicating how minor it must have been.
Please let me know if you wish to contact the paramedics. They hold a record of all incidents at Hill house for the last 10 years. It seams this was described as minor. Thankfully we had them on site to look after your client.
I do have copies of letters sent to you asking about your client attending the paramedics. I am afraid you never responded.
Please let me know If I can assist further.

No response from claimants solicitors. the paramedics do not know where the incident happened just what they were told. thier are no drains of any kind in the car parks. no comment from claimant.

The matter is not an insurance claim. therefore surely it has to be dealt with in princible following pre action protocol. surely they cant wait 2 1/2 years then just file a claim. oh perhaps they can.

Steveeasy

[des8]

The limitation period for initiating a court claim for personal injury is three years.

As soon as someone should ever indicate they are considering a PI claim against me, I would notify my PL insurers so they could deal with it from the start.
If the insurers tried to say I was not covered I would be going through my policy with a fine tooth comb to check (a long time ago I brokered a lot of liability policies and know how complicated they can be)

[steveeasy]

Yes - I would expect a decent broker to point out the potential problem. That's why if I were STEVEEASY and it was never mentioned to me when changing insurers, I'd be double- and triple-checking that I really wasn't covered!

Regarding Insurance. It appeared our insurance had lapsed and therefore we had no cover. However in 30 years we have never had or made a claim. not that is relevant. we notified the claimant we were not in a position to pass the matter on to our insurers. I suspect this was not what THEY wanted to hear. It would be interesting to know where it would have gone if it was an insurance claim.

The fact is, its now a potential claim towards us. I fully accept this. As such given the passage of time and the level of injury (we can only go with the evidence we have. our paramedics report. we should have been provided more than a letter of claim. Of course if they intend to pursue the matter.

The pre action disclosure application was actually made over 2 years ago. nothng ever requested. no request to disclose anything. no information provided relating to the claim. nothing. so what can we do to deal with it. I suspect if we stop asking it helps thier case. I suspect if their client new hed be furious. If he sustained a small injury as a result of our neglegence we would do what we could to provide a settlement for any pain/loss/hardship. cant say what that might be as we simply dont know his injuries if any!!.

[Manxman]

Regarding Insurance. It appeared our insurance had lapsed and therefore we had no cover. However in 30 years we have never had or made a claim. not that is relevant. we notified the claimant we were not in a position to pass the matter on to our insurers. I suspect this was not what THEY wanted to hear. It would be interesting to know where it would have gone if it was an insurance claim.

...

If you don't mind my saying so, you seem pretty sanguine and unconcerned about this. You run a business which involves admitting members of the public to your premises, you let your public liability insurance lapse, somebody makes a personal injury claim against you, and you think they won't want to hear that you aren't insured...

Again if you don't mind my saying so, have you considered seeking legal advice? Obviously I don't know anything about the circumstances of this alleged accident or any claim against you (and indeed it would appear you don't know much more about it either) but if you aren't aware that personal injury claims can be issued up to three years after an accident, perhaps it isn't prudent for you to be relying on your own interpretation of civil procedure rules and whether or not you think the plaintiff is complying with them?

Sorry - I'm not trying to appear critical or superior or anything, it's just that you seem very unworried about this - especially as you are not really certain what the incident was. But obviously you must have a better feel for what did - or did not - happen than I do.