Help required for a fully pleaded defence for a CCJ over credit card fraud

[wales01man]

Hi Amethyst, Thanks for the messages and all the details therein, it's all a great help. I do have a copy of the credit card agreement and it has what looks like my signature on it and a date, but not much else. I have had a few tenants here and one in particular stayed around 15 years. Astonishingly all that time he was here I was totally unaware of all that had gone on. This is mainly because I was not always here and when I was I would leave early and return late. The transactions on the account seem to be basically local shopping or online transactions, ebay etc.

Ebay purchases are through an Ebay accpunt do you know the accound used and who it was?

[anila]

not sent Recorded delivery?

Not the first letter in January but all subsequent letters were sent recorded and were received even though Cabots said they hadn't received 2 of the letters. That is the March letter and first letter in May.

[wales01man]

Ebay account? Did you find out whoes it was must have been set up with an email address

[Amethyst]

Sorry - the question was do you have a copy agreement with a signature on ?

[anila]

Ebay purchases are through an Ebay accpunt do you know the accound used and who it was?

No, the statements show very little detail.

[anila]

Sorry - the question was do you have a copy agreement with a signature on ?

Yes in June they managed to send me a copy of an agreement with what looks something like my signature and copy statements.

the Court Order says,
1. Judgement dated XX/XX/XX is set aside forthwith.
2. Defendant to file and serve a fully pleaded defence with 21 days.
3. Thereafter claim to be stayed for a period of 6 months
4. Upon expiry, parties to advise court whether settlement has been achieved.

Is that what you were saying or expected it to be?

[anila]

Sorry - the question was do you have a copy agreement with a signature on ?

Hi Amethyst , yes I do have a copy have now received the court order too. Please take a look and advise...

[Amethyst]

Yes in June they managed to send me a copy of an agreement with what looks something like my signature and copy statements.

the Court Order says,
1. Judgement dated XX/XX/XX is set aside forthwith.
2. Defendant to file and serve a fully pleaded defence with 21 days.
3. Thereafter claim to be stayed for a period of 6 months
4. Upon expiry, parties to advise court whether settlement has been achieved.

Is that what you were saying or expected it to be?

That looks good. It's a long stay for settlement negotiations ( and time for both sides to do some investigations by the sound of it )

Okay - did you see my ramble starting point for a defence I posted earlier in the thread ?

Will need to add in that you have been given a copy of the agreement with a signature that looks like yours but isn't and that you believe a handwriting expert would confirm it was not yours. You can obtain an expert report yourself now but you're a little short on time. pt2537 will know more how best to go about that as evidence.

I think you should send a Subject Access Request to the original Credit Card company asap. ( Think I mentioned that previously )

Have you been through the transactions - I know you said it was mainly local shops and whatnot - are there transactions made when you were 'out of town' for a few days, or on holiday maybe, or that simply couldn't have been made by you ?( difficult to say they were done during day while you were at work as they don't tend to have times on the transactions and sometimes they might take a day or so to appear on the statement ). I think it would be a good idea to mention a couple examples ( you can go into detail later in your Witness Statements ).

Also do the transaction lists show payments being made to the account - and where did they come from ? ( SAR should give that info too ). ( One assumes the lodger must have been paying the minimum payments on the card at least, and managed to get credit limit increases over the years )

Nothing showed on your credit file at all either? or it might have done but you haven't checked it or been declined for a loan/mortgage etc because of late payments/defaults/high borrowing balance so had no need to check it ?

You are going to have to make a report to Action Fraud of Identity Theft/Fraud who will likely pass on to the Police for statements etc. Then you can add the crime ref number in your defence.

[anila]

That looks good. It's a long stay for settlement negotiations ( and time for both sides to do some investigations by the sound of it )

Okay - did you see my ramble starting point for a defence I posted earlier in the thread ?

Will need to add in that you have been given a copy of the agreement with a signature that looks like yours but isn't and that you believe a handwriting expert would confirm it was not yours. You can obtain an expert report yourself now but you're a little short on time. pt2537 will know more how best to go about that as evidence.

I think you should send a Subject Access Request to the original Credit Card company asap. ( Think I mentioned that previously )

Have you been through the transactions - I know you said it was mainly local shops and whatnot - are there transactions made when you were 'out of town' for a few days, or on holiday maybe, or that simply couldn't have been made by you ?( difficult to say they were done during day while you were at work as they don't tend to have times on the transactions and sometimes they might take a day or so to appear on the statement ). I think it would be a good idea to mention a couple examples ( you can go into detail later in your Witness Statements ).

Also do the transaction lists show payments being made to the account - and where did they come from ? ( SAR should give that info too ). ( One assumes the lodger must have been paying the minimum payments on the card at least, and managed to get credit limit increases over the years )

Nothing showed on your credit file at all either? or it might have done but you haven't checked it or been declined for a loan/mortgage etc because of late payments/defaults/high borrowing balance so had no need to check it ?

You are going to have to make a report to Action Fraud of Identity Theft/Fraud who will likely pass on to the Police for statements etc. Then you can add the crime ref number in your defence.

Hi, Sorry for the delayed response. When you say it 'looks good' could you kindly explain what this means as I was confused about what would happen in say 6 months if both could not agree on something. Does the CCJ still stand or revert back or what?

There are loads of transactions on the statements as they have enclosed copies for a few years but I can't make head or tail of them as I have no way of proving where I was at any specific time. There are credits to the account but it just says Payment Received , Thank You.

But I am still going through the payments to see if there is anything I can make any use of.

Could you also kindly elaborate on the point 14 you made in the Defence earlier, about sections 83 and 84 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Thanks ever so much...

[pt2537]

Hi, Sorry for the delayed response. When you say it 'looks good' could you kindly explain what this means as I was confused about what would happen in say 6 months if both could not agree on something. Does the CCJ still stand or revert back or what?

There are loads of transactions on the statements as they have enclosed copies for a few years but I can't make head or tail of them as I have no way of proving where I was at any specific time. There are credits to the account but it just says Payment Received , Thank You.

But I am still going through the payments to see if there is anything I can make any use of.

Could you also kindly elaborate on the point 14 you made in the Defence earlier, about sections 83 and 84 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Thanks ever so much...

s83 and 84 deal with liability for credit when it has been misused. Thats what they are about

[Amethyst]

When you do the SAR specifically ask for details of where any payments were made from.

[Amethyst]

Hi, Sorry for the delayed response. When you say it 'looks good' could you kindly explain what this means as I was confused about what would happen in say 6 months if both could not agree on something. Does the CCJ still stand or revert back or what?

If you don't agree a settlement within the six months then the case will carry on through the court system on your defence and if you then went on to lose in court the CCJ would be reapplied. However if you won in court, or sorted out a settlement before i.e. within the six months through mediation, Then the CCJ wouldn't be applied.

When I said it looks good I meant that the CCJ is actually set aside and thus removed from the register and your credit file, usually within a month of the set-aside judgement, as opposed to simply being held for six months.

There are loads of transactions on the statements as they have enclosed copies for a few years but I can't make head or tail of them as I have no way of proving where I was at any specific time. There are credits to the account but it just says Payment Received , Thank You.

But I am still going through the payments to see if there is anything I can make any use of.

.

You were at work every day during the week anyway between 7 AM and 7 PM I think you said, so I'm guessing you had to commute to work and it's quite a way away, therefore you couldn't of bought £20 worth of stuff from the local co-op for example During the day because you were 50 miles away at the time. Simply that kind of thing.

That will mainly be relevant when you come to write your witness statement however you can put the direct denial and say you don't recognise any of the transactions, and they couldn't of been made by you because you were at work et cetera in the defence.

[anila]

s83 and 84 deal with liability for credit when it has been misused. Thats what they are about

Thank you for that information....

[anila]

If you don't agree a settlement within the six months then the case will carry on through the court system on your defence and if you then went on to lose in court the CCJ would be reapplied. However if you won in court, or sorted out a settlement before i.e. within the six months through mediation, Then the CCJ wouldn't be applied.

When I said it looks good I meant that the CCJ is actually set aside and thus removed from the register and your credit file, usually within a month of the set-aside judgement, as opposed to simply being held for six months.



You were at work every day during the week anyway between 7 AM and 7 PM I think you said, so I'm guessing you had to commute to work and it's quite a way away, therefore you couldn't of bought £20 worth of stuff from the local co-op for example During the day because you were 50 miles away at the time. Simply that kind of thing.

That will mainly be relevant when you come to write your witness statement however you can put the direct denial and say you don't recognise any of the transactions, and they couldn't of been made by you because you were at work et cetera in the defence.

Thanks so much for all your advice and all the time.

If I may ask some further Q's. Is there the chance that I may just get lumbered with this debt and not be able to prove otherwise. I am just concerned that the case might just go against me if i can't get MC solicitors to back off.

Also I was reading about pre 2007 credit cards and that they are not enforceable because of the terms and conditions and the APR not being near the signature. Is that true???

Can anyone shed any light on this please.....

[anila]

That looks good. It's a long stay for settlement negotiations ( and time for both sides to do some investigations by the sound of it )

Okay - did you see my ramble starting point for a defence I posted earlier in the thread ?

Will need to add in that you have been given a copy of the agreement with a signature that looks like yours but isn't and that you believe a handwriting expert would confirm it was not yours. You can obtain an expert report yourself now but you're a little short on time. pt2537 will know more how best to go about that as evidence.

I think you should send a Subject Access Request to the original Credit Card company asap. ( Think I mentioned that previously )

Have you been through the transactions - I know you said it was mainly local shops and whatnot - are there transactions made when you were 'out of town' for a few days, or on holiday maybe, or that simply couldn't have been made by you ?( difficult to say they were done during day while you were at work as they don't tend to have times on the transactions and sometimes they might take a day or so to appear on the statement ). I think it would be a good idea to mention a couple examples ( you can go into detail later in your Witness Statements ).

Also do the transaction lists show payments being made to the account - and where did they come from ? ( SAR should give that info too ). ( One assumes the lodger must have been paying the minimum payments on the card at least, and managed to get credit limit increases over the years )

Nothing showed on your credit file at all either? or it might have done but you haven't checked it or been declined for a loan/mortgage etc because of late payments/defaults/high borrowing balance so had no need to check it ?

You are going to have to make a report to Action Fraud of Identity Theft/Fraud who will likely pass on to the Police for statements etc. Then you can add the crime ref number in your defence.

Hi Amethyst,

Thanks for all your help and advice so far. I have a few days left before I submit my defence just a few Q's if you could kindly respond please.

I will need to get an handwriting expert but what if that report goes against me. I say this because the Judge said having looked at the claim for nearly 12k that I should try to negotiate something over the next 6 months and maybe have to pay a few grand otherwise risk going to trial and that would set the loser back by 30-40K. Does that look realistic to you after all there is a chance that MC solicitors may not want to take that risk either.

Also I have been reading about pre 2007 credit agreements and the possibility that they may not be enforceable under certain circumstances. Could you shed some light on this also please.... Just need to know if that is possible and can I submit that as a point in my defence.