Acknowledge of Service without a Particulars of Claim - CCMCC

[des8]

Whilst waiting for Jag to reappear in the morning do be aware that the "without prejudice" might apply to the totality of communications subsequent to the original even if not marked as such. There are pages of discussion, and cases galore on this subject

[Ssssssssss]

Thanks Des8, that's what I was worried about. That this guy's mention of the contents will render it without prejudice too.

It's too complicated for words...

Should I mention the misdemeanor or should I not...:-(. I don't want my reply to be without prejudice by default.


This trainee has also said, we should give him our
Our 3 expert cv's and he'll decide if they are good enough... That we should draft the letter of instruction and he'll amend it how he wants and
That we are responsible for doing this because we are claimant. But then in brackets, part 20 claimants. What happened to his client being the
Claimant then!!! I'm about to tell him to do one but I want to make sure if I do, then it's not without privalege by default because of his discrepancy using the contents of the WP letter openly.

[Ssssssssss]

Jaguarsuk, just to be clear. We sent him an open letter with some general queries on the case. He then referred to the contents of the without prejudice letter as part of his reply to our open letter.

[jaguarsuk]

Hi Jaguarsuk. So, We sent elitist trainee an open letter with some general queries on the case.

In his reply, he then referred to the contents of the without prejudice letter as part of his reply to our open letter. He said "I would like to remind you of the comments in my without prejudice letter to you that the duty of disclosure does not just take place at the disclosure stage in proceedings but is an ongoing duty and your entire counterclaim is based on quotation that our clients have not had the ability to even see and / or review"

I know what to write in the without prejudice letter to this as you've already told me but however in terms of replying to the open letter, I don't want to be told later on that my replies are not open after all because of his discrepency disclosing this in what is meant to be an open exchange.

should i ask him to remove the comments and resend for the avoidance of any doubt?


He has also banged on about the experts openly this time but that is fine as i have your response from the other letter which i can write openly now but just want to make sure it's open reply to an open letter.

Let me know.

I would just go back with this out of the letter.

Him vs You - Claim number XXXXXXXX

Without Prejudice Except As to Costs

Dear Elitist Solicitor

I write in response to your letter of XX/XX/2019 regarding the above matter in the <<PLACE>> County Court.

You ought to know that CPR Part 20 makes no provision for disclosure of documents on filing a Counter Claim and as such we are not obliged to make such disclosure at the time of filing or subsequently of our own volition.

Your client had every opportunity on receipt of the Defence and Counterclaim to request inspection of documents in our statement of case pursuant to CPR 31.14 with agreement to cover our reasonable costs of copying them. He chose not to make any request.

Your client made numerous requests for a copy of the quotations of work on 26^th June 2019 coinciding with the service of the schedule of costs he was required to complete and we felt disclosure prior to their completion would adversely prejudice the claim, so withheld the document at that time pursuant to CPR 31.3(1)(b) to further the overriding objective pursuant to CPR 1.

We are under no obligation at this stage of proceedings to make any disclosure and believe the cost of doing such to be excessive giving disclosure in any event will be ordered at a later stage by the court at our cost.

The court order dated XX/XX/2019 does not order the Defendant to avail the Claimant of three experts witness CV's for him to decide which he might prefer, it orders the parties to act placing equal burden on your client to comply with it. Given he is a contractor it should be much easier and quick for him to provide his choices to consider, curious that he has not?

It is not our intention to litigate by correspondence and as such we will not address any points raised by you or your client in the manner we have previously in any future correspondence.

If you or they wish to make serious offers in the matter put them forward, if you or your client want information make the proper requests in the proper manner and all other exchanges regards documents etcetera will be dictated by order of the court.

Is there a reason you don't want to disclose the quotes from the builders until the trail?

Just like not all letters marked without prejudice are, equally not all letter unmarked with it aren't subject to it's privilege. I wouldn't dwell too much on it, but after this letter you really ought to stand by the last two paragraphs.

There's nothing to be gained by arguing back and forth in letters, make sure you abide by the court deadlines and orders. Seems this trainee solicitor thinks they're something special, just let it wash over you and don't bite.

[Ssssssssss]

I would just go back with this out of the letter.



Is there a reason you don't want to disclose the quotes from the builders until the trail?

Just like not all letters marked without prejudice are, equally not all letter unmarked with it aren't subject to it's privilege. I wouldn't dwell too much on it, but after this letter you really ought to stand by the last two paragraphs.

There's nothing to be gained by arguing back and forth in letters, make sure you abide by the court deadlines and orders. Seems this trainee solicitor thinks they're something special, just let it wash over you and don't bite.

Thanks Jaguarsuk, Ok will do that.

We don't want to disclose the quotes because the quotes are general quotes because all the builders we engaged said they won't quote to patch up someone elses work when they will then be held liable for it e.g. fix one tile, there is a leak,, who's fault is it.

We only had one builder a bit later give us a more detail letter but his estimate was so high level we couldn't use it at the time.

But none of them wanted to get involved. We told them all the issues but they said they would only give us a general quote because it was clear it all needed to be redone from the state of the tiling. Nothing in writing except that one builder though.

The claimant wants the quotes so he can then dispute what we are claiming to be true. Despite the fact its for the expert to see what the faults are now. He doesn't want them for any other reason than to bypass due process and tell the court we don't have a valid counterclaim...but the counterclaim is based on his poor workmanship regardless of the amounts we are claiming surely ? We could just have easily claimed for a full refund without any quotes for example ?

Also the other side have refused point blank to give us any of the receipts and information we have asked for that are material to the claim and that we asked to have sight of since even before this all began. He bought different tiles to the ones we asked for for example but refused to give us the receipt so we could validate what he had done. And many other things like that.

The quotes we have now also are a year old - so can't be relied upon a year later.

We do have a recent quote we got from the one builder we said gave us a report before. That was to help us try and put remedial costs into the schedule of issues.

The claimant has always just tried to attack our information rather than follow process and that is why he wants them now. It isn't for anything else. And as soon as he has them, he would attack them and their validity. The judge told him all the documents were for disclosure and we would much prefer to defend ourselves before a judge than have an open email battle with him at this point.

I hope that makes sense ? Is it going to cause us issues. We do have the remedial cost estimates from the one helpful builder and we recently got the online prices of goods which is what we based the schedule of issues on.

[Ssssssssss]

Builder has just this afternoon sent us a batch of photographs embedded into a pdf. But there has been doctoring going on. Can see it a little. Is there anything we can do ? It seems a bit bizarre that we would send us a picture of an unbroken tile now when, when we told him there was a broken tile, he didnt send us that photo back to say no there isnt !

He sent other low res photo from a significant distance.

The other photos are clearly not the same date time but again - how can you know as he has scanned them in and put them in a pdf...

[jaguarsuk]

Well, you have done yourself no favours. You are going to have to produce those three quotes as you have listed them in the counterclaim and therefore they must be disclosed at trial.

Is the quote the builder who came to help with the schedule of costs around the same amount?

Don’t worry about the photos, they could be photos as he shouldn’t even be sending you them yet. He’ll have to bring the originals to trial and when disclosure is ordered we’ll request digital copies of the original photographs complete with meta data.

Meta data is the time, date, geo location stuff he’s trying to hide by putting them in a pdf.

As I said earlier, it’s best not to respond to him and the solicitor is on notice with your letters that this is going to be argued in court not by letter tennis.

[Ssssssssss]

Well, you have done yourself no favours. You are going to have to produce those three quotes as you have listed them in the counterclaim and therefore they must be disclosed at trial.

Is the quote the builder who came to help with the schedule of costs around the same amount?

Don’t worry about the photos, they could be photos as he shouldn’t even be sending you them yet. He’ll have to bring the originals to trial and when disclosure is ordered we’ll request digital copies of the original photographs complete with meta data.

Meta data is the time, date, geo location stuff he’s trying to hide by putting them in a pdf.

As I said earlier, it’s best not to respond to him and the solicitor is on notice with your letters that this is going to be argued in court not by letter tennis.

So what i have is :-

- 3 quotes. All for a refit and ripout. Nothing on the quotes indicates its to remedy poor previous workmanship.
- 1 email from another 4th builder with a very high level comment saying it will cost more to fix what the builder should have done right in the first place.
- 1 half finished quote with attached report indicating the defects - but the quote was finger in the air.
That is all from last year.

This year, the guy who did the half finished quote came back and went through everything in the schedule of issues with me. Then put together a more detailed quote. It did essentially say though that tiling needs to be ripped out. It will cost x to do that and will require removal of all equipment too. etc etc.

So that's what i have. I do have the odd texts from the old builders asking how the case is going. We have every intension of submitting the quotes at disclosure though. We always were intending to. It's just that the claimant will try and say that we didn't tell the new builders what the problem was or that we just asked for new quotes without asking them what the issue is etc etc....

Yes re his solicitor - we having a really hard time with him. He is picking at everything. We said what you told us to say plus that we would send our experts by friday BUT on proviso that we have equal time to see his and so they should be with us at the same time. We then suggested a couple of things that can be taken out. And then said we'd write letter of instruction but could he give us his suggestions by friday BUT that if it couldn't be decided then separate letters would have to go out. I also told him what the judge had asked to be given to the expert. He will pick at it all and not agree but I'm trying to stay focussed on meeting our experts list deadline and trying to ignore elitist solicitor - he had the nerve to tell me to stop litigating by letter too today !! I'd just replied to him !

[Ssssssssss]

OK - Jaguarsuk. We sent expert witness letter to other side as its urgent now...

Our letter attached here and his response. We don't know what to make of it ??? Is he saying that he won't be putting any of his forward at all....???

Please bear in mind though also that he tried yesterday to make something up about without prejudice etc...
And also, we have never been given their experts list so how would he know we would reject them out of hand ?!!!

[jaguarsuk]

So what i have is :-

- 3 quotes. All for a refit and ripout. Nothing on the quotes indicates its to remedy poor previous workmanship.
- 1 email from another 4th builder with a very high level comment saying it will cost more to fix what the builder should have done right in the first place.
- 1 half finished quote with attached report indicating the defects - but the quote was finger in the air.
That is all from last year.

Okay, this is good and you'll disclose them with the Witness Statement until then their solicitor can go whistle.

This year, the guy who did the half finished quote came back and went through everything in the schedule of issues with me. Then put together a more detailed quote. It did essentially say though that tiling needs to be ripped out. It will cost x to do that and will require removal of all equipment too. etc etc.

So that's what i have. I do have the odd texts from the old builders asking how the case is going. We have every intension of submitting the quotes at disclosure though. We always were intending to. It's just that the claimant will try and say that we didn't tell the new builders what the problem was or that we just asked for new quotes without asking them what the issue is etc etc....

This is even better as it backs up your position that it can't just be bodged and a proper job will be more costly a result.

Yes re his solicitor - we having a really hard time with him. He is picking at everything. We said what you told us to say plus that we would send our experts by friday BUT on proviso that we have equal time to see his and so they should be with us at the same time. We then suggested a couple of things that can be taken out. And then said we'd write letter of instruction but could he give us his suggestions by friday BUT that if it couldn't be decided then separate letters would have to go out. I also told him what the judge had asked to be given to the expert. He will pick at it all and not agree but I'm trying to stay focussed on meeting our experts list deadline and trying to ignore elitist solicitor - he had the nerve to tell me to stop litigating by letter too today !! I'd just replied to him !

That's because you are communicating with him, as I said in post #139, there's nothing to be gained from arguing this back and forth by letter. If they make an offer to settle it needs a response, you need to adhere to court directions and other than that there is no reason at all to write to the solicitor or the claimant.

The more you argue back with them, the more they will argue the claim and all he is trying to do is scare you at this stage. Each letter is putting pressure on you, well if you don't respond to them he won't have anything to carry on writing back and turning the screws.

The letter sent first was to inform him of your position, he's all uppity because you put him straight on a few things and by the contents of the letter had very little to have a go back. Just ignore him.

OK - Jaguarsuk. We sent expert witness letter to other side as its urgent now...

Our letter attached here and his response. We don't know what to make of it ??? Is he saying that he won't be putting any of his forward at all....???

Please bear in mind though also that he tried yesterday to make something up about without prejudice etc...
And also, we have never been given their experts list so how would he know we would reject them out of hand ?!!!

Okay, so just for your info court deadlines are always 4pm on the date. You weren't to know that, so just make sure you get them over by 4pm on Friday and if you have them before that there's nothing to gain in holding on to them until the deadline.

Great, if he doesn't want to put any experts forward you can find ones that are favourable to you. Even better if he doesn't agree to one of them you write to the judge as he advised in the trail and we'll include that he rejected your three, but didn't put three of his own alternatives forward causing breach of the order. That should ensure you get your expert witness out of your three regardless.

It is hard sometimes not to respond to them, but you're gaining nothing by doing it and playing into his solicitors hand who is adding to his bill nicely.

[GBExile]

Why do people continue to communicate with the person that is suing them even after being not told to?

[Ssssssssss]

Why do people continue to communicate with the person that is suing them even after being not told to?

We've had to because the other side appointed solicitor and also because we need to select expert witness. Up until last week we didn't speak to the other side at all. It's just gone crazy this week because of the court deadlines. Jaguarsuk is absolutely right though and I'm glad he said what he did as its completely calmed me down and i didn't respond today to the other sides letter at all.

You have to remember I've never done anything like this before. I don't know what solicitors are like or what their tactics might be. I'm trying my best.

I can only thank jaguarsuk every day more and more for all the help and advice given. Not sure i'd have kept sane without it.

[jaguarsuk]

Why do people continue to communicate with the person that is suing them even after being not told to?

Inexperience combined with trying to get the other side to understand they just want to settle what ever the issue is and get on with life.

We've had to because the other side appointed solicitor and also because we need to select expert witness. Up until last week we didn't speak to the other side at all. It's just gone crazy this week because of the court deadlines. Jaguarsuk is absolutely right though and I'm glad he said what he did as its completely calmed me down and i didn't respond today to the other sides letter at all.

You have to remember I've never done anything like this before. I don't know what solicitors are like or what their tactics might be. I'm trying my best.

I can only thank jaguarsuk every day more and more for all the help and advice given. Not sure i'd have kept sane without it.

That is the best way.

If you haven't already sent over the suggestions of experts when you do just send it with this.

Him vs You - Claim number XXXXXXXX

Dear Elitist Solicitor

Please find enclosed details of three experts we agree to instruct in the above matter as ordered by the court by way of service upon you.

I look forward to receipt of confirmation from you of which your client agrees with us should carry out the assessment.

That's all that needs to be said, in his latest letter the solicitor advised you he has a copy of the order from the court and therefore he'll know what the timescale is to get on with it.

If that deadline comes around and you've heard nothing I'll draft you a letter at that point.

[Ssssssssss]

Inexperience combined with trying to get the other side to understand they just want to settle what ever the issue is and get on with life.

That is the best way.

If you haven't already sent over the suggestions of experts when you do just send it with this.

That's all that needs to be said, in his latest letter the solicitor advised you he has a copy of the order from the court and therefore he'll know what the timescale is to get on with it.

If that deadline comes around and you've heard nothing I'll draft you a letter at that point.

Thanks so much Jaguarsuk. I sent the letter before seeing this but i've kept it simple (i hope). I forgot to write that i look forward to receipt of confirmation from you of which your client agrees. Hopefully its ok.

I just said, please find enclosed CV's of the 3 experts. I then said Judge xxxx stated they cannot be local builders and must be calibre of surveyors. Therefore our experts are surveyors. Then i just listed 3. Then put in their CV's and cover emails they sent of their estimated costs. For each one.

Hopefully that doesn't cause an issue. Wasnt sure about sending the estimated costs cover emails but i guess it should be ok. I'd obviously have to have had an initial call with the expert to ascertain if they are the right candidate so will briefly told them the issue in order for them to say whether they can do it.

Thanks so much Jaguarsuk !!

[jaguarsuk]

That’s fine and actually as it has been ordered that the expert will be paid jointly adding in the costs in the right thing to do as he can’t say you’re making up costs when it comes to that.

Lets see see what his solicitor responds with next.