Acknowledge of Service without a Particulars of Claim - CCMCC

[jaguarsuk]

Sorry Jaguarsuk, my brain got a bit fried just then. I think i've worked it out.

1. Quote value 6635
2. How much we have already spent 4115.22
3. How much we have retained from the claimant by not paying the final invoice they gave us (even if that final invoice is wrongly written). 1669.97.

So should it be 6635 - 1669.97 as the amount we claim assuming that if he loses, we dont pay the final invoice if you know what i mean ?

No, forget the amount you withheld as if you win that won't be paid.

Okay, so they have done work that is substandard, rendered the bathroom unusable and needs to be completely redone. Therefore you want your money back plus whatever else it'll cost to get the bathroom done to the correct standard. Your claim is for £6635

So

1. 4115.22 (what you paid them)
2. 2519.78 (6635 cost to get the bathroom rectified/finished minus 4115.22 that you paid to them - the difference between what you have paid and what it will cost to put things right)
3. Interest on 6635
4. Court Fees


If you wanted to claim for just the 4115.22 to keep fees down that is your prerogative as it is your claim, but personally I'd be claiming for the £6635. Horse for course.

[Ssssssssss]

No, forget the amount you withheld as if you win that won't be paid.

Okay, so they have done work that is substandard, rendered the bathroom unusable and needs to be completely redone. Therefore you want your money back plus whatever else it'll cost to get the bathroom done to the correct standard. Your claim is for £6635

So

1. 4115.22 (what you paid them)
2. 2519.78 (6635 cost to get the bathroom rectified/finished minus 4115.22 that you paid to them - the difference between what you have paid and what it will cost to put things right)
3. Interest on 6635
4. Court Fees


If you wanted to claim for just the 4115.22 to keep fees down that is your prerogative as it is your claim, but personally I'd be claiming for the £6635. Horse for course.

Yes better to go for the bigger number. I get it now. Although i think what was confusing me also was that the mosaic cost was not paid to him, it was paid to Wickes so is a loss. I can see i didn't make that clear in my document as the mosaic bit is ambiguous how i've written it below. It was all meant to be paid by the claimant but he made my mum pay and said he would sort it out later from the tile allowance.

£ 3865.32 – 2 instalments already given of £1932.66 each.
£ 224.82 – Mosaic costs paid by Radiat Shah
£ 24.98 – Additional Mosaic costs paid by Radiat Shah


Should i therefore make a further adjustment using your calcs above as follows


1. 3865.32 (what you paid to claimant)
2. 2769.68 (6635 cost to get the bathroom rectified/finished minus 3865.32 that you paid to them - the difference between what you have paid and what it will cost to put things right)
3. 224.82 + 24.98 loss for purchase of Mosaics
3. Interest on 6884.80
4. Court Fees

[Ssssssssss]

Yes better to go for the bigger number. I get it now. Although i think what was confusing me also was that the mosaic cost was not paid to him, it was paid to Wickes so is a loss. I can see i didn't make that clear in my document as the mosaic bit is ambiguous how i've written it below. It was all meant to be paid by the claimant but he made my mum pay and said he would sort it out later from the tile allowance.

£ 3865.32 – 2 instalments already given of £1932.66 each.
£ 224.82 – Mosaic costs paid by Radiat Shah
£ 24.98 – Additional Mosaic costs paid by Radiat Shah


Should i therefore make a further adjustment using your calcs above as follows


1. 3865.32 (what you paid to claimant)
2. 2769.68 (6635 cost to get the bathroom rectified/finished minus 3865.32 that you paid to them - the difference between what you have paid and what it will cost to put things right)
3. 224.82 + 24.98 loss for purchase of Mosaics
3. Interest on 6884.80
4. Court Fees

Ahhh - no i think i'm still wrong arent i. It shouldnt matter what was a loss attributable to him v a loss from paying wickes. So actually it should all still calculate as you've said rather than how i've said above right ?

[jaguarsuk]

Ahhh - no i think i'm still wrong arent i. It shouldnt matter what was a loss attributable to him v a loss from paying wickes. So actually it should all still calculate as you've said rather than how i've said above right ?

Okay you were right about what to list and maybe this is just a better order, you bought materials that you will have to buy again, so:

1. 3865.32 (what you paid them)
2. 249.80 materials for Mosaic
3. 2769.68 (6884.80 cost to get the bathroom rectified/finished minus 4115.12 that you paid to them combined with materials costs - the difference between what you have paid and what it will cost to put things right)
4. Interest on 6884.80
5. Court Fees

You'll breakdown 1 & 2 in the Witness Statement

[jaguarsuk]

Therefore

And The Part 20 Claimant Claims

1. £3,865.32 Paid to the Part 20 Defendant for unsatisfactory works.
2. £249.80 materials for Mosaic.
3. £2,769.68 the difference to engage a new contractor to rectify unsatisfactory works.
4. Interest pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984.
5. Part 20 Claimants Court Fees.

[Ssssssssss]

Therefore

And The Part 20 Claimant Claims

1. £3,865.32 Paid to the Part 20 Defendant for unsatisfactory works.
2. £249.80 materials for Mosaic.
3. £2,769.68 the difference to engage a new contractor to rectify unsatisfactory works.
4. Interest pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984.
5. Part 20 Claimants Court Fees.

Thank you Jaguarsuk - as you can tell i was having some real difficulty in calculating as i just assumed that it should have been what we thought we were going to pay on the old contract versus what we are now having to pay on new quote Then actual costs added to that. Thanks for your help !!

I just had a couple more questions that i was hoping you could help with - will be ready to send all this back to the court then.

1. You mentioned in paragraph 8 we should have sent a part 31.14 request out. Does this mean we should remove the paragraph as we didnt do that. Or should we sent a request out now ?

2. So as its a claim that has one claimant and 2 defendants, the CCMCC are saying something along the lines that if the defendants sent a counterclaim in then the court fees would be one for each defendant and therefore i should only do a counterclaim for one and not both ? Is this correct ? I don't want to split out my document as currently i have both my mum and dad signing the same document and was just going to file a copy of the same for both.

[jaguarsuk]

1. You mentioned in paragraph 8 we should have sent a part 31.14 request out. Does this mean we should remove the paragraph as we didnt do that. Or should we sent a request out now ?

2. So as its a claim that has one claimant and 2 defendants, the CCMCC are saying something along the lines that if the defendants sent a counterclaim in then the court fees would be one for each defendant and therefore i should only do a counterclaim for one and not both ? Is this correct ? I don't want to split out my document as currently i have both my mum and dad signing the same document and was just going to file a copy of the same for both.

1. If you were to send it now you would be obligated to wait until the Claimant has had time to respond to the request before filing the defence, depending on your deadline to file then it might not be worth it. They have 7 days to reply, so what is your deadline date to file?

2. Have they brought the claim against you together, listed as 1st and 2nd Claimants?

[Ssssssssss]

1. If you were to send it now you would be obligated to wait until the Claimant has had time to respond to the request before filing the defence, depending on your deadline to file then it might not be worth it. They have 7 days to reply, so what is your deadline date to file?

2. Have they brought the claim against you together, listed as 1st and 2nd Claimants?

We think our deadline date will be 28 days from 26th September which is when we received the particulars of claim so 24th Oct. We have just queried this with the court to make sure that is correct and they are finding out for us (because as you know the case was stayed until they file the POC so the judge might decide we dont have that much time - the CCMCC didnt refer it back to the judge until we called them but hopefully we should soon know ).

Their claim is 1 claimant and 2 defendants (my mum and dad).

[jaguarsuk]

1. We think our deadline date will be 28 days from 26th September which is when we received the particulars of claim s

2. Their claim is 1 claimant and 2 defendants (my mum and dad).

1. Check with the court to verify this is the case.

2. Then what the court have advised is correct, if you have contracted with the 1 Claimant, just Counter Claim against him. By including the 2nd Claimant you would be essentially launching a separate claim against him, which would mean figuring out what exactly is owed by whom to you. Keep it simple and just Counter Claim against the Claimant whom has claimed against you.

[Ssssssssss]

1. Check with the court to verify this is the case.

2. Then what the court have advised is correct, if you have contracted with the 1 Claimant, just Counter Claim against him. By including the 2nd Claimant you would be essentially launching a separate claim against him, which would mean figuring out what exactly is owed by whom to you. Keep it simple and just Counter Claim against the Claimant whom has claimed against you.

Yes we are counterclaiming against just him for sure as you suggest. But does that mean that both my mum and dad (the defendants) have to file the N9B and both of them say they are counterclaiming OR should one say he is counterclaim and the other say she is just defending? The CCMCC seemed to think that if they both say they are counterclaiming against the one claimant, they both would have to file the court fee so effectively filing it twice ?

[jaguarsuk]

Yes we are counterclaiming against just him for sure as you suggest. But does that mean that both my mum and dad (the defendants) have to file the N9B and both of them say they are counterclaiming OR should one say he is counterclaim and the other say she is just defending? The CCMCC seemed to think that if they both say they are counterclaiming against the one claimant, they both would have to file the court fee so effectively filing it twice ?

Both Defendants are Counter Claimants under Part 20 the single Claimant is the Part 20 Defendant. One fee should be paid by you as it is one Counter Claim in the same way that his claim is one claim against multiple defendants. He paid one fee and so do you.

[Ssssssssss]

Both Defendants are Counter Claimants under Part 20 the single Claimant is the Part 20 Defendant. One fee should be paid by you as it is one Counter Claim in the same way that his claim is one claim against multiple defendants. He paid one fee and so do you.

I have to submit 2 N9B forms as they only accommodate one defendant per form, but the form asks for a counterclaim fee to be paid. If i fill out the counterclaim fee on both forms, wont that cause a problem ? Or do i just write a note in there to say its a joint fee ? Is the filling out of the forms that i dont understand.

[jaguarsuk]

I have to submit 2 N9B forms as they only accommodate one defendant per form, but the form asks for a counterclaim fee to be paid. If i fill out the counterclaim fee on both forms, wont that cause a problem ? Or do i just write a note in there to say its a joint fee ? Is the filling out of the forms that i dont understand.

In the Defendant box on the 1st line write "1st: <<Name of defendant 1>>" then on the next line "2nd: <<Name of defendant 2>>" then you can use the same form for both as it is issued against both.

[Ssssssssss]

In the Defendant box on the 1st line write "1st: <<Name of defendant 1>>" then on the next line "2nd: <<Name of defendant 2>>" then you can use the same form for both as it is issued against both.

There is only one signature and one date of birth box too. It's a really badly designed form

We had to send in two separate Acknowledge of Service forms in for the same reason. It's just that because N9B is asking for the fee to be paid, its not as straightforward as the AoS forms were.

[jaguarsuk]

There is only one signature and one date of birth box too. It's a really badly designed form

We had to send in two separate Acknowledge of Service forms in for the same reason. It's just that because N9B is asking for the fee to be paid, its not as straightforward as the AoS forms were.

I would fill two forms, attach them together and cross out the counter claim fee section on one of them. Send a cover letter explaining that it's one claim and one counter claim requiring one fee.