Third Party Debt Order

[Sambur]

Hi,
I have some questions about a Third Party Debt Order?
Someone owes me £3,600 pounds. They basicaly provided false information to the court and now they only pay me £15 per month.
They’re also making a claim against someone else.
1/ If they win when can I apply for a third party debt order?
2/ Who do I make the claim order out for? That persons solicitors or the person that is supposed to pay him?
3/ I read something in EX325 that once the order is received by the the third party they have to provide information if the sum of funds available is lower than my claim? What significance does this have? Does it mean I’ll only get what’s available or nothing at all?
Thanks in advance for any help.

[MIKE770]

you are running two threads for the same item, you are confusing the issue reading each thread interpreting two different scenarios, , if you state they made false statements can you prove It? because if not implications could you dearly if not proven!

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#1 CCJ Enforcement

Yesterday, 20:04:PM

[Sambur]

I wrote 2 different threads, because one is specific to a Third Party Debt Order and the other one is asking about other options and I don’t want to confuse myself with the two with one overly complicated thread.

I’m not sire I follow why you say that they are two different scenarios? Unless you’re saying I’m considering different options of approach. I am. I don’t think that the Debt Order will be enough. I’m considering baillifs to start with. His claim isn’t complete yet, won’t be for a few months. i want to use this as a backup if there is any outstanding debt.

The person got a variation order and the court accepted his offer of £15 per month.

I applied for him to attend court for questioning, a clerk questioned him and he offered £15 again, despite their being incosistencies between his responses in the questioning. I also know he lied about where he is living and the household income and costs. His spending actually proves this, but the court ignored it (ai sent a letter to the court and they responded that they just ask questions, don’t verify them and referred me to EX321.

Can I prove his place of address? As far as I know not without sending baillifs to the address he provided in his statement.

So if I understand your response correctly (on both threads), I have no way of enforcing the CCJ because of the variation order. I’m really frustrated that someone can just refuse to give back what’s mine, lie in court and I have no rights. Seems to me like legalised theft.

How can I get the order overturned?

[jaguarsuk]

I think you are misunderstanding what a third party debt order is.

It is a common misconception that it allows you to seek repayment from someone whom pays or owes money to a judgement debtor.

Taken from the leaflet EX321 you were referred to by the court:

Third-party debt order

A third-party debt order is usually made to stop the defendant taking money out of their bank or building society account. The money you are owed is paid to you from the account. A third-party debt order can also be sent to anyone who owes the defendant money.

If the defendant has a bank or building society account, the bank or building society will freeze the account when it receives the order from the court. If the account is overdrawn on the day the bank or building society receives your order, you cannot be paid from the account. The defendant will know about the order and may stop paying money into the account.

For more information about a third-party debt order, read the leaflet called ‘EX325 – Thirdparty debt and charging orders – how do I ask for an order?’ which is available from any County Court or Family Court hearing centre, or online at hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk

So if I understand your response correctly (on both threads), I have no way of enforcing the CCJ because of the variation order. I’m really frustrated that someone can just refuse to give back what’s mine, lie in court and I have no rights. Seems to me like legalised theft.

How can I get the order overturned?

The defendant is paying the judgement as ordered by the court and therefore you do not have a right of enforcement.

You can make an application to vary the order, but without proof that the defendant can afford more then you are unlikely to succeed and will be liable to any costs of the defendant if unsuccessful.

[Sambur]

If I understand correctly the debt order will stop him from using the money until a court decides what to do with it. Which is basicaly my goal otherwise the money will disappear.

[jaguarsuk]

If I understand correctly the debt order will stop him from using the money until a court decides what to do with it. Which is basicaly my goal otherwise the money will disappear.

How do you even know if there is any money in his bank account?

And even if there is I'm going to refer you back to EX321:

If the account is overdrawn on the day the bank or building society receives your order, you cannot be paid from the account. The defendant will know about the order and may stop paying money into the account.

As he will know about the order long before the bank receives it do you think he'll leave any money in the bank account to be frozen?

I know I wouldn't.

[Sambur]

Can the debt order only be made on an account or can I have it sent to his solicitors or the person that will be paying him? Basically stop it from getting it to his account.

[jaguarsuk]

Can the debt order only be made on an account or can I have it sent to his solicitors or the person that will be paying him? Basically stop it from getting it to his account.

Read post #4 again

[Sambur]

It is an order of the court that freezes money held by a person, organisation or institution, such as a bank or building society, which might otherwise be paid to the debtor against whom you have a judgment. The organisation or person that is holding the money is referred to as the ‘third party’. A third party debt order will prevent the debtor having access to the money until the court makes a decision about whether or not the money should be paid to you. In these proceedings the person who owes you the money is referred to as the ‘debtor’; you are referred to as the ‘creditor’.

I know post refers to banks, but it does say usually and EX325 also mentions persons and organisations.

[jaguarsuk]

I know post refers to banks, but it does say usually and EX325 also mentions persons and organisations.

All financial institutions... not solicitors or the person that will be paying him!

Going back to post #4 again...

It is a common misconception that it allows you to seek repayment from someone whom pays or owes money to a judgement debtor.

solicitors or the person that will be paying him = someone whom pays or owes money to a judgement debtor

It doesn't matter what you want a third party debt order to do or that you feel aggrieved that you think the defendant is taking you for a ride, the order does what the order does nothing more or less.

[Sambur]

I’m pretty sure I saw a post somewhere under this topic about getting a third party debt order on tenants payments.

And I understand that law is not about what I know (and for the sake of the arguments lets assume my knowledge is 100% correct) but about what I can prove. That is why I am asking these questions, so that I can take the right action at the right time.

I also have no intention of forcing the debtor to pay beyond his means. I’m only trying to get back my savings fairly.

[jaguarsuk]

I’m pretty sure I saw a post somewhere under this topic about getting a third party debt order on tenants payments.

Yes you did and I advised that person exactly what I am advising you, they had mistakenly thought they could apply to have money from someone whom pays or owes money to a judgement debtor too. They have other enforcement options available to them and are now pursuing those. You'll find that thread here: http://legalbeagles.info/forums/foru...cement-options

Additionally their defendant is not paying them and as such they have a right to enforce. Your defendant is paying you as the court ordered and therefore any form of enforcement is a mute point for you.

And I understand that law is not about what I know (and for the sake of the arguments lets assume my knowledge is 100% correct) but about what I can prove. That is why I am asking these questions, so that I can take the right action at the right time.

The only way to do anything in this situation is to prove to the court that the defendant has more means than they have told the court. A third party debt order will not do this because as soon as the defendant is notified of the application they'll empty the bank account. I would and if you're honest with yourself you would too.

I also have no intention of forcing the debtor to pay beyond his means. I’m only trying to get back my savings fairly.

I'm not suggesting that you are, but what I am trying to suggest is that the route you are seeking is not the route you think it is and if you pursue this route to it's real conclusion that in reality you'll just be throwing good money after bad.

[Sambur]

Last question I guess.

You say that I have to prove that he has more means than he says that he has. Can I only do that by applying to change the variation order or is there another way to prove to the court that he lied?

[jaguarsuk]

Last question I guess.

You say that I have to prove that he has more means than he says that he has. Can I only do that by applying to change the variation order or is there another way to prove to the court that he lied?

So you would need to obtain the proof and then apply for a variation of the order. Depending on his means that could be that the court orders settlement of the judgement in full within 14 days or that the instalments are increased.

In applying to vary the order you would state what you want that variation to be.

It's worth remembering that the goal is to get paid, so trying to obtain an unrealistic variation to the order is only going to result in default and you having to spend money enforcing for what might be the same outcome as just setting a realistic variation in the first place.

Check the edited electoral role, if he's registered to vote at his real address and on the edited roll then that's your first evidence that he has mislead the court. Proving his means will be much more difficult.

[Sambur]

Thanks.
Sorry to be a pain with some more questions.
If I request another order to obtain information (which I can probably do because he’s changed jobs since the last one), what affect does this have on the variation order?