Civil vs criminal please help please

[des8]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

Hi des8

i am trying to upload the photo of my loan agreement but it's not working for some reasons. I am keep trying to upload it please do check and keep in touch once you see the loan agreement.

many thanks

OK will look when it arrives.
However if the loan is in your name, and if it is secured on the vehicle, you do not own the vehicle and therefore cannot give it away. If you do not have ownership, you cannot pass ownership. You may have allowed him to drive it, but that is all.
Obtaining a new V5c form the DVLA is not difficult, with or without the previous keeper's signature. A V5c form does not prove or disprove ownership, it shows only the keeper.

[Bwithjj]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

This would appear to be an HP agreement.

If that is so, then by taking the car, he has committed theft. As Johnboy007 suggests, advise the police, Santander and the DVLA accordingly. If the car is still insured in his brothers name, it might be fun to drop the insurance company a line too.

Hi

police said it's not a theft whereas its civil. Cos it could be considered as a gift!!! The police wasn't believing my statement he changed the v5c without my signature and they asked me to deal with DVLA !!!!

my ex has some issue with licence and it seems like it was suspended. That was the main reason why he insured his brother in that car.

currently he is the registered keeper but his brother is insured in the car (which is the information that I got from the police). But my ex is telling me he already sold the car!!!

[Bwithjj]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

concur with advice above.

Have to wonder why Santander said that the OP's ex could claim the vehicle was a gift from OP and therefore a civil matter.
Surely as the vehicle is security OP couldn't pass ownership as it wasn't hers to pass, and Santander should know that.
If OP fails to keep up payments Santander will repossess the car, which will come as a surprise to the current "owner"!
Not that I am suggesting that as a course of action, as it will have other unwanted effects.

Hi johnboy007
i was even surprised to hear that but then I thought that's the best thing for them to say to avoid all the heck!!!

They told me that if I write to them that I want to end the contract then they can repossess the vehicle and I must bear the expenses. But if they gonna repossess the car they wouldn't give it back to me and I will be end up paying over 5500£ for closing the loan as the loan is new. And of course I gonna loose out plenty of money for nothing I am keep paying the money though I don't have the car cos I don't want it effect my credit history. My ex know that I wouldn't cancel the direct debit so he seems to be very happy and I really don't know what's his plan

[Johnboy007]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

Bwithjj,
Please do as I asked you.
Do not get into any conversations with the Police, other than to insist, that they log your complaint and the fact of the car as being stolen, and get that CAD number from them.
Take the HP agreement with you to the Police and ask them to take a copy of it to put with your complaint.
Tell them it couldn't possible be classed as a gift, because the car wasn't, and isn't yours to give away.
If they refuse to do this, then tell them you will make a complaint to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, as they are not taking your complaint seriously.

Contact the relevant police force. The ‘make a complaint’ section below includes links to the complaints section of each police force website in England and Wales. Alternatively, you can use our online complaint form, which will be forwarded automatically to the relevant police force.


In certain situations, police forces must refer complaints to the IPCC – for example, those involving death, serious assault or a serious sexual offence. You can find out more about when and why the IPCC may become involved in a complaint on our ‘referrals’ page.

There is no time limit for making a complaint, although you should try to do it as quickly as possible. The police can decide not to deal with a complaint if it is received more than 12 months after the incident. If you are complaining more than 12 months after an incident you should explain why your complaint has been delayed. The police will need to consider your explanation when they decide whether to deal with the complaint.

Police forces are expected to take all complaints seriously, to listen to you and to act in a fair and balanced way to seek to put things right.


Santander and the DVLA must also be informed.
Just write a letter to Santander, saying that as you have reported the car stolen, you will not accept any liability for it's return.
That should shake them into some sort of action.

[des8]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

The difficulty for the OP is that the ex has taken control of private property, ie the car which is the property of Santander, but left in her care and custody.
This is "conversion" which is a civil wrong (tort), and to that extent police are correct.
However the Theft Act 1968 defines theft: "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."
It is on this section that the OP must insist when reporting to the police, and it would be worth being prepared by reading the whole of that section of the act.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

Hi johnboy007
i was even surprised to hear that but then I thought that's the best thing for them to say to avoid all the heck!!!

They told me that if I write to them that I want to end the contract then they can repossess the vehicle and I must bear the expenses. But if they gonna repossess the car they wouldn't give it back to me and I will be end up paying over 5500£ for closing the loan as the loan is new. And of course I gonna loose out plenty of money for nothing I am keep paying the money though I don't have the car cos I don't want it effect my credit history. My ex know that I wouldn't cancel the direct debit so he seems to be very happy and I really don't know what's his plan

Hi Bwithjj,

Do not end the contract as you will certainly be out of pocket.
I believe as Des8 has stated, Santander should have noticed this.
It does seem no-one wants to accept the problems of getting the car back.
Actually Bwithjj, put your complaint to the police in writing and ask for that CAD number to say you have reported it.

Write your letter like this, adding in the details.

FAO: The Borough Commander,
(Name of your borough, town or city where you live, including post-code)
Dear Sir,
I wish to report the theft of a motor vehicle, (registration Number) between (give approximate dates)
I have reported this to the station desk at (name of police station), but the officers concerned, are not taking my complaint seriously, and telling me it could be construed as a gift from me.
However, the vehicle does not belong to me, as it is still the property of Santander Bank, under a H.P agreement, signed and being paid for by me. Therefore it cannot be construed as a gift, as it is not mine to give away.
To the best of my knowledge, the last person to have possession of the vehicle is (name of your ex and his address).
Signed (your name)
Date

Do not put the letter in an envelope but take it to the police station as it is.
Do keep a copy though.
It's odds on that the police officers on duty will read the letter, and this should spark an immediate response from them.
Good luck, and keep us informed.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

The difficulty for the OP is that the ex has taken control of private property, ie the car which is the property of Santander, but left in her care and custody.
This is "conversion" which is a civil wrong (tort), and to that extent police are correct.
However the Theft Act 1968 defines theft: "A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."
It is on this section that the OP must insist when reporting to the police, and it would be worth being prepared by reading the whole of that section of the act.

"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."

The ex has stolen the car, in that to take control of goods, he must be authorised to do so, under the 'Taking control Of Goods Act 2013, which came into effect in April 2014'.
He will not return the car, so his intention is to permanently deprived the owner of the vehicle.
The 'conversion' which you was talking about Des, states.....
The wrongdoer converts the goods to his or her own use and excludes the owner from use and enjoyment of them.
However the ex has given the car to his mate to use, and is in fact insured in his mates name.
So 'conversion' does not apply in this case, as the ex has not taken the car for his own use.
I think Des mate, that this is an open and shut case if the police push it.
If the ex has sold the car then he could be in bother....

[bluebottle]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

Most loan agreements for vehicles will contain a clause requiring that the vehicle remain in the borrower's possession until the final payment is made.

The OP's ex made them take out a loan in their name, knowing the loan was for the ex's benefit and which the ex subsequently defaulted upon to let the OP face the flak that was bound to then ensue.

This is fraud per se. The ex and their relative have no right to be using the vehicle or to register it in their name. Is there any reason why the OP's ex should not take out the loan in their own name or their relative should not take out a loan in their name?

[righty]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

This would appear to be an HP agreement.

If that is so, then by taking the car, he has committed theft. As Johnboy007 suggests, advise the police, Santander and the DVLA accordingly. If the car is still insured in his brothers name, it might be fun to drop the insurance company a line too.

It think its a conditional loan agreement which means that unlike an HP agreement they don't have to obtain a court order after 1/3 is paid to recover the car and who's name is on the V5 is irrelevant as neither you or your ex own the car the bank does

[righty]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

This would appear to be an HP agreement.

If that is so, then by taking the car, he has committed theft. As Johnboy007 suggests, advise the police, Santander and the DVLA accordingly. If the car is still insured in his brothers name, it might be fun to drop the insurance company a line too.

It think its a conditional loan agreement which means that unlike an HP agreement they don't have to obtain a court order after 1/3 is paid to recover the car and who's name is on the V5 is irrelevant as neither you or your ex own the car the bank does


AND even if you did as your ex claims you couldn't make a gift of the car because you don't have free title

[des8]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

".
The 'conversion' which you was talking about Des, states.....
The wrongdoer converts the goods to his or her own use and excludes the owner from use and enjoyment of them.
.

Alternative definitions:
i)Any unauthorized act that deprives an owner of personal property without his or her consent.
ii)conversionn.a civil wrong (tort) in which one converts another's property to his/her own use, which is a fancy way of saying "steals." Conversion includes treating another's goodsas one's own,or purposely giving the impression the assets belong to him/her.This gives the true owner the right to sue for his/her own property or the value and loss of use of it, as well as going to law
enforcement authorities since conversion usually includes the crime of theft.

As ex is treating the goods as his own it is conversion, and so a civil tort. However as the owners are SCF I wonder if OP has standing to take action in civil court anyway.
However it is also theft, and as bluebottle points out ,there has probably also been fraud

[Bwithjj]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

It think its a conditional loan agreement which means that unlike an HP agreement they don't have to obtain a court order after 1/3 is paid to recover the car and who's name is on the V5 is irrelevant as neither you or your ex own the car the bank does

hi hi all please see the terms and conditions. Thank you very much for your advice and support

[des8]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

Deleted.... duplicate post

[des8]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

As it is a Conditional Sale Agreement the goods belong to SFC until final payment is made.
Bwithjj, as you had no authority to lend to your ex, and as he was aware of the agreement, his actions in removing it from your care, custody and control, with no intention of returning the vehicle to you amount to theft, i.e. a criminal offence.
As such you must, as others have already advised, insist on the police treating it as such.
Although it is also a civil matter (conversion), this does not preclude it being criminal, and you should resist police and SFC pressure to classify it only as a civil matter.

[Bwithjj]

Re: Civil vs criminal please help please

Hi Bwithjj,

Do not end the contract as you will certainly be out of pocket.
I believe as Des8 has stated, Santander should have noticed this.
It does seem no-one wants to accept the problems of getting the car back.
Actually Bwithjj, put your complaint to the police in writing and ask for that CAD number to say you have reported it.

Write your letter like this, adding in the details.

FAO: The Borough Commander,
(Name of your borough, town or city where you live, including post-code)
Dear Sir,
I wish to report the theft of a motor vehicle, (registration Number) between (give approximate dates)
I have reported this to the station desk at (name of police station), but the officers concerned, are not taking my complaint seriously, and telling me it could be construed as a gift from me.
However, the vehicle does not belong to me, as it is still the property of Santander Bank, under a H.P agreement, signed and being paid for by me. Therefore it cannot be construed as a gift, as it is not mine to give away.
To the best of my knowledge, the last person to have possession of the vehicle is (name of your ex and his address).
Signed (your name)
Date

Do not put the letter in an envelope but take it to the police station as it is.
Do keep a copy though.
It's odds on that the police officers on duty will read the letter, and this should spark an immediate response from them.
Good luck, and keep us informed.

Hello Johnboy

i wish to clarify one thing before I go to the police and submit my complaint as you have advised me. But I am concerned as I stated in the post, my "ex made the initial deposit of 1000£ Using his debit card at the dealer + 322£ +172£ Transferred to my account under the reference of 'car payment'. But then he stopped the payment and when I asked the money he told me he sold the car in Africa for £4500.

As he paid the initial money, does he have any authority to keep or sell the car or do you think the police could see this aspect and not accepting my complaint 'saying its civil'.

I am sorry if I am being a nuisance.

however I haven't signed the v5c declaration 8. So if he forged my signature the police might accept and investigate the complaint.

I spoke to DVLA today and they said they are investigating it. Do I need to wait to hear from them before I go to the police?

However the loan is in my name and his name not included. When I received the v5c from DVLA it was in my name. It's a fact that he asked me to handed over the v5c to him as there was an initial agreement he told me he will change the loan in to his name (as I stated in the post). However I didn't asked or given any permission to change the ownership of the car nor signed the v5c!!!!