Used car problems

[djz]

On 25 Aug 2023 my wife bought a used 2015 Mini online from a small ltd company (one employee who is the director) vendor 250 miles away and paid a deposit via bank transfer, then we collected the car and paid the balance via bank transfer.

I looked over the car and was happy it seemed to be suitable. The total paid was £6,995. Invoice does not have the LTD company name on it but the vendor's T/a name.

Wife has only managed to drive just over 3,000 miles in the car over 5 months.... until...

On 21 Jan (around 5 months) the car showed a fault and limp-home mode. A friend who is a mechanic looked and basically said the engine is beyond economical repair as some gears have been chewed through and needs a new camshaft etc. We let the dealer know via phone what happened but offered no resolution and brushed it off. I didn't know about the detail of CRA at this point.

09 Feb: the car was diagnosed at an independent BMW specialist garage and was found to require significant engine repairs, with a minimum cost of £2,200. I have the diagnosis and quote for the repairs.

14 Feb: sent the diagnosis information to the dealer (delay was due to garage paperwork) who suggested he would pay £1,000 towards the bill & no more as a gesture of goodwill.

15 Feb: spoke to Citizens Advice who logged a case & suggested the car is not satisfactory quality under CRA 2015 and the dealer should perform a repair/replacement free of charge. We sent this letter to the dealer recorded delivery:

Formal Letter of Complaint
Your final email dated 14 Feb 2024 made a proposal of covering £1,000 towards the repair. I am unable to accept this proposal as under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 states the car you supplied should be of a satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. My rights have been breached because the car you sold me is faulty. I would like you to put this right by repairing the car at your cost.

In support of my claim I have enclosed:
A copy of the receipt for the car.
A copy of the garage inspection report & repair quote.

Please respond within 14 days of receiving this letter.

16th Feb: Paid £320 to garage for diagnosis/labour. Garage said it would need a new timing chain and it would be costly labour to do so on this model - over 16 hours - but this is not on paperwork. The quote was just the minimum work required.

19th Feb: Car was towed from the garage back to the vendor at our cost of around £420.

27th Feb: Vendor said it would be 4 weeks for repair as garage is busy. Said we should pay for the timing chain kit at a cost of £380 as it is not part of the repair but would be required on warranty - fair enough we agreed to pay that.

29th Feb: Vendor phoned an suggested buying the car back at second hand cost for £4,000 via email. Refused this via email.
Later he said the repair would be paid 50/50 and not at his cost via email (below):

Before I repair the car I will require 50% towards the total cost including parts and labour.
The estimated cost for the car will be circa £2500.
This meaning your contribution of £1250 on completion of the work estimated and as discussed in 4 weeks time.
If this is not acceptable I will be happy to deal with you or your legal representative.

The vendor has been given many chances to fix the problem as is his legal duty, but will not budge.

Should the next step be to send a letter finally rejecting car with the option of repair, replacement and saying if you are unable a total cost including the purchase price minus fair usage (20p a mile), plus delivery cost and diagnosis cost ?

Or do we go straight to an LBA detailing the total cost above ? Some help with the wording would be great.


Poor wife has been without a car and is feeling trapped without it - so I will be looking at buying her a new one as this really is a deadlock situation and will take many months to resolve. There are lots of lessons learnt for us and red flags I should have spotted!!!!

[echat11]

Hi DJZ

Welcome to LB

How did you pay for it?

[djz]

How did you pay for it?

The total was paid via bank transfer, in two transactions. A deposit & final payment at collection.

[echat11]

The total was paid via bank transfer, in two transactions. A deposit & final payment at collection.

My fault, it says, first two lines. If you paid some via Credit Card, then the Credit Card company could have pursued this for you.

Send the following, make sure you get Proof of Postage. (amend it to suit, i.e. I enclose etc.)
On the letter also write CAB / TRADING STANDARDS Ref No: XXXXXXXXXXXX


https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...r-aeziX3M7tYNw

[djz]

My fault, it says, first two lines. If you paid some via Credit Card, then the Credit Card company could have pursued this for you.

Send the following, make sure you get Proof of Postage. (amend it to suit, i.e. I enclose etc.)
On the letter also write CAB / TRADING STANDARDS Ref No: XXXXXXXXXXXX


https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...r-aeziX3M7tYNw

Thank you, is it worth calculating the total amount in this letter and:
1) including an amount for the "fair usage", e.g 20p a mile
2) including the cost of returning the vehicle
3) including the cost of the diagnoses?

[echat11]

Thank you, is it worth calculating the total amount in this letter and:
1) including an amount for the "fair usage", e.g 20p a mile
2) including the cost of returning the vehicle
3) including the cost of the diagnoses?

Yes, because that's what will be on the Court Claim form.

[Pezza54]

The following are my thoughts and advice on OP's case and the which template letter.
The dealer is responsible for transport and diagnosis costs so include them in your letter and state you will be adding them to your claim if you have to make one
Do not mention a deduction for usage. That figure is to be negotiated
You should state that if the dealer choses to repair the car you expect the work to be done in a reasonable time and after the car is returned you require a further 7 days to test the car
I would delete "If you fail to reimburse me.........................." in the which letter and write something along the lines "Please reply to this letter within 14 days stating whether you intend to repair the car free of charge or refund monies I have paid to date. If you chose to repair kindly provide me with a timescale for the work.
If you fail to reply or I am not satisfied with your offered solution, I have no alternative but to .................................................. ....court"

[djz]

I missed something in the timeline

15 Feb the dealer emailed:

I have the rite to repair. Please arrange delivery of the vehicle back to my garage. I will have the car diagnosed myself and repair to a satisfactory condition

We took this to mean he accepted the request to repair the car.


Today we went the following letter (via email & recorded delivery)

Letter Rejecting used car

On 25 Aug 2023 I purchased, and took delivery of, the above vehicle MINI One from you. On 21 Jan 2024 I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: the car showed a “Powertrain fault”, the car went into limp-home mode and has been unusable since. On 09 Feb 2024 the car was diagnosed at an independent BMW specialist garage and required significant engine repairs. The car had only driven 3,108 miles in my possession.

I contacted you in my previous letter dated 15 Feb 2024 Re: Formal Letter of Complaint requesting you to repair the MINI One at your cost or replace it, in line with the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

In your email dated 15 Feb 2024 you said: "I have the rite to repair. Please arrange delivery of the vehicle back to my garage. I will have the car diagnosed myself and repair to a satisfactory condition". I arranged delivery of the vehicle (at my expense) back to your care so that you could diagnose and repair it to a satisfactory condition. The car has been in your possession since 19 Feb 2024.

Your email on 29 Feb 2024 requesting that I pay 50% towards the repairs estimated at £2,500 from your chosen garage is not a suitable outcome. You also suggested buying the car from me for £4,000. This is also not a suitable outcome.

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 requires dealers to supply goods that are fit for purpose, as described and of satisfactory quality. However, the vehicle is clearly not roadworthy. You are therefore in breach of contract.

As stated in my previous letter, I am legally entitled to ask that you repair or replace this vehicle at no further cost to me. If you are unable to do so, I expect to be reimbursed:
The original purchase price of £6,995.00, minus a deduction for fair use.
Transport costs of £429.00 returning the vehicle to you.
Diagnosis costs of £320.00 from <REDACTED>.

Please reply to this letter within 14 days stating whether you intend to repair the car free of charge or refund the money I have paid to date. If you chose to repair, kindly provide me with a timescale for the work. If you fail to reply, or I am not satisfied with your offered solution, I have no alternative but to issue a claim against you in the county court for recovery of the money and costs incurred without further reference to you. If you choose to repair the car, I expect the work to be done in a reasonable time and after the car is returned I require a further 7 days to test the car.

This has been met with an email response:

As you are aware I have made three attempts with three proposals to resolve a fair and reasonable outcome.

These proposals have been met without compromise. I have taken into consideration the date of purchase, year of vehicle and total miles covered.

Just for the both of our understanding I have offered you my personal number and I have made you aware you can contact me anytime. You made note that I have 14 days to respond to you.

I will consistently respond to you as I always have because my goal is to find a fair and reasonable outcome for you.

So I assume this means we are at a deadlock, wondering if we should either wait the 14 days for a final response, or assume the above is the final response?

[Pezza54]

Probably safest to wait 14 days before starting a court claim
Your wife will have to be the claimant, signing court documents, but you will be able to speak on her behalf if the case reaches a court hearing
If you are drafting the statement of case yourself you can always post your initial version for advice

[echat11]

You've given 14 days, so you need to stick to it, pre-action protocols, CPR.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...action_conduct

[djz]

Thank you.

We will of course wait the required 14 days, but do we need to send a letter before action (and wait another 14 days) as a next step or can we go straight to an online money claim ?

[echat11]

Thank you.

We will of course wait the required 14 days, but do we need to send a letter before action (and wait another 14 days) as a next step or can we go straight to an online money claim ?

If you've sent one LBA that should be sufficient, but if you think their is 'benefit' in sending another, then do so.
But you can't keep sending them in the hope, he will see reason.

[djz]

Hi, I have drafted a LBA as we haven't had any satisfactory response. Looking to send it out via 1st class recorded delivery tomorrow. Any comments?

This is from https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...-court-action/

Ref: XXXX XXX
CAB / Trading Standards Case Number: XXXX

To whom it may concern,
Letter Before Court Claim

On XX Aug 2023 I purchased and took delivery of the XXXX vehicle (registration SP65 KOA) from you. On XX Jan 2024 I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: the car has a powertrain fault and was diagnosed to need significant engine repairs including new camshafts and XXXX components.

I have not received a satisfactory outcome to my letter dated 29 Feb 2024 which explained what is wrong with the vehicle and why I am entitled to a repair at your cost or replacement. Your email dated 29 Feb 2024 requesting that I pay 50% in advance towards the repairs estimated at £2,500 is not a satisfactory outcome.
I am now requesting a full refund of £XXX, on the grounds that the goods were not of satisfactory quality under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I enclose a copy of the proof of purchase. This figure has been calculated from:
The original purchase price of £6,XXX.00
Deduction for fair use of £7xx.00 based on 3,XXX miles at 25p/mile.
Diagnosis costs of £3xx.00 from xxx Ltd.
Transport costs of £4xx.00 returning the vehicle to you.
I would like a reply as soon as possible so that I know you have received this letter. If you don't agree to the refund, could you please send me a detailed response saying why you don't agree.
To avoid taking court action, I am willing to use Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem.
If I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 14 days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice. This may increase your liability for costs.
I refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraph 13-16 which sets out the sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.
I look forward to your acknowledgement.
Yours faithfully,
Wifey's name

[Pezza54]

You returned the car to the dealer on the 19 February within 6 months after the date you picked up the car and following an email on 15 February from the dealer stating he would repair the car to a satisfactory condition. He did not inform you that you would have to contribute money towards the repair.
The dealer is now saying that you must pay 50% of the estimated repair before the work is undertaken. This is not in accordance with CRA and a judge in court may not take kindly to you being held to ransom before the car is returned to you in a satisfactory condition.

I am concerned about the strength of your wife's court claim if she has to make one. She purchased an old car and drove it for 5 months without a problem. The price for repair work (£2.5k) is only estimated and with an old car the final repair price may significantly increase. In a court the judge will take the age of the car, its mileage, number of owners, price paid, the advert and how the dealer described the car into account There is a chance that the judge considers a reduction in price (£1K refund offer) or £4k to buy back the car was fair at the time the dealer made the offers.

Your latest LBA is weaker than the one you sent on 1 March (post 8)." I would like a reply as soon as possible....." "I look forward to your acknowledgement."

If after reading my second paragraph you are still serious about making a court claim which can be costly and stressful, you could write again (referring to your 1 March letter) with the calculation of the claim amount and stating you are willing to take part in ADR

[djz]

You returned the car to the dealer on the 19 February within 6 months after the date you picked up the car and following an email on 15 February from the dealer stating he would repair the car to a satisfactory condition. He did not inform you that you would have to contribute money towards the repair.
The dealer is now saying that you must pay 50% of the estimated repair before the work is undertaken. This is not in accordance with CRA and a judge in court may not take kindly to you being held to ransom before the car is returned to you in a satisfactory condition.

I am concerned about the strength of your wife's court claim if she has to make one. She purchased an old car and drove it for 5 months without a problem. The price for repair work (£2.5k) is only estimated and with an old car the final repair price may significantly increase. In a court the judge will take the age of the car, its mileage, number of owners, price paid, the advert and how the dealer described the car into account There is a chance that the judge considers a reduction in price (£1K refund offer) or £4k to buy back the car was fair at the time the dealer made the offers.

Your latest LBA is weaker than the one you sent on 1 March (post 8)." I would like a reply as soon as possible....." "I look forward to your acknowledgement."

If after reading my second paragraph you are still serious about making a court claim which can be costly and stressful, you could write again (referring to your 1 March letter) with the calculation of the claim amount and stating you are willing to take part in ADR

The letter sent on 1 March (post 8) was a letter rejecting the car, I would like to send a formal LBA now including the final amount we will request & a final chance to correct things.

We would still like to sort this out, taking it to court if needed, to reclaim some/all of the money requested or a suitable resolution. We are in no rush for it.


So I have drafted another LBA, with your feedback implemented & removal of fluffy bits, see below:

Ref: XXXX XXX
CAB / Trading Standards Case Number: XXXX

To whom it may concern,
Letter Before Court Claim

On XX Aug 2023 I purchased and took delivery of the XXXX vehicle (registration SP65 KOA) from you. On XX Jan 2024 I discovered that it was not of satisfactory quality: the car has a powertrain fault and was diagnosed to need significant engine repairs including new camshafts and XXXX components.

I have not received a satisfactory outcome to my letter "Letter Rejecting used car" dated 29 Feb 2024 which explained what is wrong with the vehicle and why I am entitled to a repair at your cost or replacement. Your email dated 29 Feb 2024 requesting that I pay 50% in advance towards the repairs estimated at £2,500 is not a satisfactory outcome.

I am now requesting a full refund of £6,xxx.00, on the grounds that the goods were not of satisfactory quality under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I enclose a copy of the proof of purchase.

This figure has been calculated by:
- The original purchase price of £6,XXX.00
- Deduction for fair use of £7xx.00 based on 3,XXX miles at 25p/mile.
- Diagnosis costs of £3xx.00 from xxx Ltd.
- Transport costs of £4xx.00 returning the vehicle to you.

To avoid taking court action, I am willing to use Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem.

If I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 14 days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice. This may increase your liability for costs.

I refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraph 13-16 which sets out the sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.

Yours faithfully,

Wifey's name