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Final Right to Reject – Dealer’s response confusing – please help

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  • Final Right to Reject – Dealer’s response confusing – please help

    Hi all,

    It appears that I wrongly believed that the Car Dealer’s response was their acceptance of my rejection of the motor vehicle.

    I’d be extremely grateful if someone would spare a moment or two by taking a look at the below four emails and advise me on what my response should be?

    Thank you in advance.



    ME
    Further to my email dated 18th December 2018.

    On 21st June 2018 I notified you that the car was making a clunking noise during gear change, which coincided with repairs carried out by RRG Peugeot.

    Unfortunately Arnold Clark Peugeot have been unable to identify the latest fault with the car, therefor it cannot be repaired.

    Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I am exercising my right to reject the goods and claim a refund.

    Please contact me within 14 days with your comments and intentions.



    DEALER
    I apologise for the delay in responding to you. Our records indicate that you purchased the vehicle on the 6th January 2018 with a verified mileage reading of 32828 miles. I can also confirm that we paid your local Peugeot main dealer for the replacement clutch kit and flywheel in May 2018 and you then reported a clunking noise to us in June 2018.

    Having reviewed your file I can see that you have been liaising with Peugeot and various other garages in relation to the clunking noise however although the noise can be heard, no full diagnostics have been carried out or any confirmation received from any garage /main dealer confirming that the fault is present or can be repaired.

    I have also noted that you are requesting to reject the vehicle under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

    However with the above in mind and taking in to account the mileage that you have covered in the vehicle since the date of purchase that being approximately 16,572 miles based upon the mileage reading of 49400 in December to resolve this matter we are in a position to offer one of the following options -

    1 Return the vehicle back to XXXX for the clunking noise to be investigated and if the fault is found repairs carried out free of charge and you keep the vehicle.

    2) If the fault cannot be found or the vehicle cannot be repaired the we will assess the bodywork exterior / interior and taking in to account the mileage covered which will more than likely be around the 50,000 mark by now we will agree a favourable part exchange valuation of £8,000, bearing in mind that the true part exchange valuation should be around £7,000 to £7,500 at this moment in time or we can make a mileage deduction of 25 pence per mile that being 25p x 17,172 miles = £4293.00, making a valuation of £8,155.00.

    Please note that above calculations are based upon the CRA 2015 whereby if a company accepts the rejection of a vehicle we are within our legal rights to charge the consumer for fair usage.

    The above is open for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this email. Please note that the more mileage that is covered in the vehicle the above figures will need to recalculated.



    ME
    Thank you for your email confirming that you accept my rejection of the car.

    Just to confirm that the car has been rejected for a refund and for that reason a repair would not be acceptable. The car has not been used since you received my rejection letter on 27th December 2018 and the exact mileage is 49416.

    According to the Consumer Rights Act 2015, any deductions for ‘fair use’ should be reasonable and justified, I do not believe that your deductions are neither fair nor reasonable, therefore can you please provide me with details of how your deductions were calculated and your justification for these deductions.

    Under the CRA 2015, once you have accepted my rejection, you must provide a refund within 14 days, therefore please respond in a timely manner.



    DEALER
    First of all I would like to confirm that we have not accepted the rejection of your vehicle as yet. As per my previous email, I have copied the paragraphs relevant and can only reiterate the following;

    1) Return the vehicle back to Cargiant for the clunking noise to be investigated and if the fault is found repairs carried out free of charge and you keep the vehicle.

    2) If the fault cannot be found or the vehicle cannot be repaired the we will assess the bodywork exterior / interior and taking in to account the mileage covered which will more than likely be around the 50,000 mark by now we will agree a favourable part exchange valuation of £8,000, bearing in mind that the true part exchange valuation should be around £7,000 to £7,500 at this moment in time or we can make a mileage deduction of 25 pence per mile that being 25p x 17,172 miles = £4293.00, making a valuation of £8,155.00.

    Please note that above calculations are based upon the CRA 2015 whereby if a company accepts the rejection of a vehicle we are within our legal rights to charge the consumer for fair usage.

    The above is is self explanatory and confirms our position on this matter. Therefore until the vehicle is returned back to us for us to carry out our necessary inspections as stated above. We are unable to move forward.

    I would also like to point out that XXXXX are members of the Retail Motor Industry Federation and abide by their code of practice. They also offer an ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) to all consumers. You can either write to them at The Retail Motor Industry Federation, National Conciliation Service, 1st Floor 2 Allerton Road, Rugby, CV23 OPA or contact them by Telephone on 01788 538317.

    Tags: None

  • des8
    replied
    So you are at the point where you have no choice but initiate court action, unless you are minded to accept their "generous" offer.

    i would limit the claim to £10,000 to ensure it is allocated to the small claims track.
    Although I have known claims in excess of £10000 be allocated to that track, it is unusual and if it is allocated fast track there are cost implications.

    Feel free to post up your particulars of claim here for checking before lodging with the court if you wish

    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Originally posted by des8 View Post
    Armchair diagnosis (always dodgy!) sounds like gear linkage worn just out of tolerance, but I would assume that was checked
    Sorry for the delay, I've only just noticed that the thread has extended to a second page...

    I can't be sure for certain if the gear linkage was inspected or not? as each time it was inspected they were unable to replicated the noise as the faulty component had not got hot enough in order to make the noise, and it's incredibly frustrating trying to explain that taking the car for a run-around the block is not going to be sufficient.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Update….

    Ok, so the dealer is standing firm in their decision not to except my rejection unless I agree to their unreasonable terms.

    I do not feel that using a ADR service provided by the courts would be beneficial to me as they have stated that their offer would not change.

    I’d be interested to know If I could bill them for the cost of car hire?, as the car I am currently using is borrowed and will have to be returned to its owner shortly, otherwise i will have to purchase a cheap run-about to get to work and back.

    Also… when calculating my claim do I include any damages in the total? As my claim including damages would exceed 10k, and without damages I could reduce to just under 10k.

    Your comments and advice would be greatly appreciated… thank you.


    ME
    Letter before action

    Following our earlier correspondence regarding my rejection of the car under the CRA 2015.

    Your offer to use the ADR service of The Retail Motor Industry Federation is declined as I do not believe they will be imperial. They are a body whose self-declared aim is to "represent the interests of operators in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man providing sales and services to motorists and businesses."

    If I do not receive your acceptance of my final right to reject within the next two weeks please note that it is my intention to initiate a court claim without further notice. The courts offer a mediation service which might be acceptable to both of us as fully independent.

    Please note the car is kept on a public highway 24/7, therefor If the car remains uncollected after 24th February 2018 I will have to continue paying road tax and insurance In order for the car to remain ‘road legal’ and you will be charged £1.81per day as reimbursement.



    DEALER
    Thank you for your letter dated 10th February 2018, the contents of which have been noted.

    With regards to your comments related to the ADR service of the Retail Motor Industry Federation, I can confirm that this service forms part of the CRA 2015 and is dealt with by the National Conciliation service, therefore I do not agree with your comments.

    I have noted that your intention is to initiate a court claim and will be adding £1.81 per day to your claim in relation to road tax and insurance. I am fully aware that the courts offer a mediation service and if used in due course our offer will still be in line with what we have previously offered you.

    Therefore unless you accept our previous offer which we feel is fair and reasonable we will not be collecting the vehicle by the 24th February 2019.

    If you decide to go forward with your court claim then any correspondence received will be responded to accordingly.

    Leave a comment:


  • des8
    replied
    Armchair diagnosis (always dodgy!) sounds like gear linkage worn just out of tolerance, but I would assume that was checked

    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Cheeky buggers indeed. If this isn't enough proof of a fault then what is?.... www.penninehomesecurity.com/rcz-clunking

    Leave a comment:


  • des8
    replied
    Most calculators would suggest a depreciation in the area of £2000 (the one I tend to use is the one you mentioned earlier!)
    Depreciation does not necessarily equate to a fair usage allowance, which I do not believe should be based on a blanket mileage charge of ?p per mile.

    I gather you have had a number of faults with this vehicle, which you think a reasonable person would deem to make it unsatisfactory.
    I find it odd they admit there is a "clunking" noise (not normal) and although several garages appointed by Cargiant have been unable to identify the fault,
    they want yet a further chance to discover the cause. Presumably they expect you to pay the cost of returning the vehicle as well (cheeky buggers!)

    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Letter before action now sent… thank you Des8 for the template.


    The car in question is….
    Peugeot RCZ Red Carbon (Nov 2014) RRP £29500.00.
    Purchased from Cargiant on 6th Jan 2018.
    Cost £12300.00 with 32.800 miles.
    Latest fault reported to dealer on 26th July 2018 (approx. mileage 38k)
    Rejected the car on 27th Dec 2018 (mileage 49.400)
    Total mileage covered since ownership (6th Jan – 27th Dec) 16.600
    Mileage covered from first reporting fault to date of rejection (26th July - 27th December) approx. 11.400

    Thank you

    Leave a comment:


  • des8
    replied
    Without knowledge of make and model it is nigh impossible to work out a fair usage charge and I would not even bother trying to negotiate with them
    They appear to have been delaying matters all along
    They were notified in June 2018 of the fault and still have not repaired it.
    They claim " no full diagnostics have been carried out or any confirmation received from any garage /main dealer confirming that the fault is present or can be repaired" but the onus is on them to prove the fault does not exist.
    They have failed to repair as required so you are left with rejection.
    If we knew make, model, price and year advice could be given on fair usage charge for the 6 months up to time of rejection (not the present time)

    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Originally posted by des8 View Post
    So write back:
    Letter before Action

    Following our earlier correspondence etc etc
    Your offer to use the ADR service of the Retail motor Industry is declined as i do not believe they will be impartial.
    They are a body whose self declared aim is to "represent the interests of operators in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man providing sales and services to motorists and businesses."


    If I do not receive your acceptance of my final right to reject within the next two weeks please note that it is my intention to initiate a court claim without further notice.
    The courts offer a mediation service which might be acceptable to both of us as fully independent

    Yrs etc etc


    You may of course be happy to use the ADR they mention, or even go to the Motor Ombudsman (https://www.themotorombudsman.org/)
    I personally have no faith in any of the ombudsman services (but that is possibly just me being grumpy!)
    Thank you once again Deb8 for your feedback and advice.

    Personally, its strait to court as they've made me beyond grumpy!!

    I would like to add the following if suitable?......

    Please note:
    As I do not own a garage/drive nor do I have access to either, the car, although no longer in use is parked on a public highway and therefore I have a legal obligation to tax and insure it. If you fail to collect the car after (date) I will be claiming £?? per week compensation against you to recover the these costs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Originally posted by R0b View Post
    Have you checked the valuation of the car on the likes of what car website or parkers to see what it might be valued at now based on its current mileage and condition? 25p per mile seems to be a little on the high side and I think you would be within your reasonable rights to question how they reached that amount and would certainly need to justify that charge and show how it was calculated and not based on some arbitrary amount.

    Equally, you need to do the same and I think the starting point is to get an estimate value and see if that is higher or lower than what they are offering. I think a pence per mile calculation sounds like a reasonable option, but if you take for example financed cars on PCP, you would tend to see excess mileage charges anywhere from 3.5p up to aruond 25-30p but typically it would more than likely be an anything up to 15p.

    If you can do some googling and research or even contact some finance companies to find out what their excess mileage charges are, and then take the average of those, that could be a reasonable way to calculate. Either way, I think their 25p per mile is on the higher side of things.

    Take a look at this website https://www.osv.ltd.uk/excess-mileage/ which shows 6 lenders with variable excess mileage charges albeit they are 2016 charges they probably haven't moved much. If you average them out together with the VAT you get 18.38p multiply that by the added mileage done and you get £3,156.21 which is somewhat less than their calculation of £4,293.00.

    Another way of looking at it is calling into a dealership who specialises in your make of vehicle and ask them for a blank copy of a typical PCP agreement and then check what the excess mileage is on that. You could also call the finance company direct and ask them to confirm by email or something.

    If you can come to a logical conclusion based on how you've calculated the deduction for you, it's likely that a court will find your workings reasonable. I don't think a letter before action should be the next step just yet until you have been able to firmly decide on how much you are seeking to deduct from the use of the car.



    Thank you Rob for your responce.

    I have been doing my homework whilst waiting for thier responses.

    I paid £12300 for the car and it's current 'showroom' value is £10200-£10800 one repetable site even suggested £11100. As I paid the showroom price I believe the above is comparable.

    I found the below site here very helpful and it has been spot on with the other above valuations.... https://www.themoneycalculator.com/v...l/PEUGEOT/RCZ/

    Having looked into PCP excess milage charges etc, it appears that 10p per mile is average and also looking at lease cars with a new purchase value of 13k the excess milage charges are 6-8p pm.

    As I have added value to the car including wheel related refurbishments (£480) carried out before I became aware of any faults, and new premium tires in December 2018 as a legal requirement (the originals were odd and half worn at best when purchased) I can prove this via a main dealer health report. I will use these improvements in any negotiations.

    I will also be claiming compensation for loss of earnings as a result of all the faults since ownership.

    Any feedback would be greatly be appreciated.

    Thank you

    Leave a comment:


  • des8
    replied
    So write back:
    Letter before Action

    Following our earlier correspondence etc etc
    Your offer to use the ADR service of the Retail motor Industry is declined as i do not believe they will be impartial.
    They are a body whose self declared aim is to "represent the interests of operators in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man providing sales and services to motorists and businesses."


    If I do not receive your acceptance of my final right to reject within the next two weeks please note that it is my intention to initiate a court claim without further notice.
    The courts offer a mediation service which might be acceptable to both of us as fully independent

    Yrs etc etc


    You may of course be happy to use the ADR they mention, or even go to the Motor Ombudsman (https://www.themotorombudsman.org/)
    I personally have no faith in any of the ombudsman services (but that is possibly just me being grumpy!)

    Leave a comment:


  • R0b
    replied
    Have you checked the valuation of the car on the likes of what car website or parkers to see what it might be valued at now based on its current mileage and condition? 25p per mile seems to be a little on the high side and I think you would be within your reasonable rights to question how they reached that amount and would certainly need to justify that charge and show how it was calculated and not based on some arbitrary amount.

    Equally, you need to do the same and I think the starting point is to get an estimate value and see if that is higher or lower than what they are offering. I think a pence per mile calculation sounds like a reasonable option, but if you take for example financed cars on PCP, you would tend to see excess mileage charges anywhere from 3.5p up to aruond 25-30p but typically it would more than likely be an anything up to 15p.

    If you can do some googling and research or even contact some finance companies to find out what their excess mileage charges are, and then take the average of those, that could be a reasonable way to calculate. Either way, I think their 25p per mile is on the higher side of things.

    Take a look at this website https://www.osv.ltd.uk/excess-mileage/ which shows 6 lenders with variable excess mileage charges albeit they are 2016 charges they probably haven't moved much. If you average them out together with the VAT you get 18.38p multiply that by the added mileage done and you get £3,156.21 which is somewhat less than their calculation of £4,293.00.

    Another way of looking at it is calling into a dealership who specialises in your make of vehicle and ask them for a blank copy of a typical PCP agreement and then check what the excess mileage is on that. You could also call the finance company direct and ask them to confirm by email or something.

    If you can come to a logical conclusion based on how you've calculated the deduction for you, it's likely that a court will find your workings reasonable. I don't think a letter before action should be the next step just yet until you have been able to firmly decide on how much you are seeking to deduct from the use of the car.



    Leave a comment:


  • Dinoman
    replied
    Update…

    Dealer responds to my letter, should my reply be ‘letter before action’??

    Having brought a troublesome car, I last notified the Dealer of another fault within 6 months of ownership (5 months & 15 days) and it is of my understanding the clock stops when the dealer was informed, so I am baffled as to their response below.

    Your help would be very much appreciated, thank you



    ME
    Thank you for your email.

    The Consumer Rights Act 2015 (Section 23) clearly states the dealer has one opportunity to bring the vehicle to a satisfactory condition if required and that has to be done within a reasonable time.

    The fault was first reported in June 2018, and subsequent investigations have failed to resolve the issue. Six months is beyond a reasonable time.
    I require a refund of the full purchase price less an amount for fair usage which is to be agreed.

    The car is available for collection from 4th February 2019 at your cost as per CRA 2015 (Section 7 & 8)

    Please contact me to arrange collection of the car within the next 14 days.



    DEALER
    Thank you for your email, the contents of which have been noted.

    We are fully aware of the Consumer Rights Act and as previously stated we feel that due to the time that has elapsed and the mileage covered since the date of purchase our offer to resolve this matter in our previous emails is fair and reasonable.

    If you feel that this is not the case I can only advise you to contact the Retail Motor Industry Federation who offer an ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) to all consumers. You can either write to them at The Retail Motor Industry Federation, National Conciliation Service, 1st Floor 2 Allerton Road, Rugby, CV23 OPA or contact them by Telephone on 01788 538317.

    With the above in mind, we feel it is of no benefit to arrange collection of your vehicle at this moment in time.

    Leave a comment:


  • des8
    replied
    posted wrong thread

    Leave a comment:

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