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Final Right to Reject – Dealer’s response confusing – please help

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  • Final Right to Reject – Dealer’s response confusing – please help

    Hi all,

    It appears that I wrongly believed that the Car Dealer’s response was their acceptance of my rejection of the motor vehicle.

    I’d be extremely grateful if someone would spare a moment or two by taking a look at the below four emails and advise me on what my response should be?

    Thank you in advance.



    ME
    Further to my email dated 18th December 2018.

    On 21st June 2018 I notified you that the car was making a clunking noise during gear change, which coincided with repairs carried out by RRG Peugeot.

    Unfortunately Arnold Clark Peugeot have been unable to identify the latest fault with the car, therefor it cannot be repaired.

    Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I am exercising my right to reject the goods and claim a refund.

    Please contact me within 14 days with your comments and intentions.



    DEALER
    I apologise for the delay in responding to you. Our records indicate that you purchased the vehicle on the 6th January 2018 with a verified mileage reading of 32828 miles. I can also confirm that we paid your local Peugeot main dealer for the replacement clutch kit and flywheel in May 2018 and you then reported a clunking noise to us in June 2018.

    Having reviewed your file I can see that you have been liaising with Peugeot and various other garages in relation to the clunking noise however although the noise can be heard, no full diagnostics have been carried out or any confirmation received from any garage /main dealer confirming that the fault is present or can be repaired.

    I have also noted that you are requesting to reject the vehicle under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

    However with the above in mind and taking in to account the mileage that you have covered in the vehicle since the date of purchase that being approximately 16,572 miles based upon the mileage reading of 49400 in December to resolve this matter we are in a position to offer one of the following options -

    1 Return the vehicle back to XXXX for the clunking noise to be investigated and if the fault is found repairs carried out free of charge and you keep the vehicle.

    2) If the fault cannot be found or the vehicle cannot be repaired the we will assess the bodywork exterior / interior and taking in to account the mileage covered which will more than likely be around the 50,000 mark by now we will agree a favourable part exchange valuation of £8,000, bearing in mind that the true part exchange valuation should be around £7,000 to £7,500 at this moment in time or we can make a mileage deduction of 25 pence per mile that being 25p x 17,172 miles = £4293.00, making a valuation of £8,155.00.

    Please note that above calculations are based upon the CRA 2015 whereby if a company accepts the rejection of a vehicle we are within our legal rights to charge the consumer for fair usage.

    The above is open for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this email. Please note that the more mileage that is covered in the vehicle the above figures will need to recalculated.



    ME
    Thank you for your email confirming that you accept my rejection of the car.

    Just to confirm that the car has been rejected for a refund and for that reason a repair would not be acceptable. The car has not been used since you received my rejection letter on 27th December 2018 and the exact mileage is 49416.

    According to the Consumer Rights Act 2015, any deductions for ‘fair use’ should be reasonable and justified, I do not believe that your deductions are neither fair nor reasonable, therefore can you please provide me with details of how your deductions were calculated and your justification for these deductions.

    Under the CRA 2015, once you have accepted my rejection, you must provide a refund within 14 days, therefore please respond in a timely manner.



    DEALER
    First of all I would like to confirm that we have not accepted the rejection of your vehicle as yet. As per my previous email, I have copied the paragraphs relevant and can only reiterate the following;

    1) Return the vehicle back to Cargiant for the clunking noise to be investigated and if the fault is found repairs carried out free of charge and you keep the vehicle.

    2) If the fault cannot be found or the vehicle cannot be repaired the we will assess the bodywork exterior / interior and taking in to account the mileage covered which will more than likely be around the 50,000 mark by now we will agree a favourable part exchange valuation of £8,000, bearing in mind that the true part exchange valuation should be around £7,000 to £7,500 at this moment in time or we can make a mileage deduction of 25 pence per mile that being 25p x 17,172 miles = £4293.00, making a valuation of £8,155.00.

    Please note that above calculations are based upon the CRA 2015 whereby if a company accepts the rejection of a vehicle we are within our legal rights to charge the consumer for fair usage.

    The above is is self explanatory and confirms our position on this matter. Therefore until the vehicle is returned back to us for us to carry out our necessary inspections as stated above. We are unable to move forward.

    I would also like to point out that XXXXX are members of the Retail Motor Industry Federation and abide by their code of practice. They also offer an ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) to all consumers. You can either write to them at The Retail Motor Industry Federation, National Conciliation Service, 1st Floor 2 Allerton Road, Rugby, CV23 OPA or contact them by Telephone on 01788 538317.

    Tags: None

  • #2
    bit more info and clarification please:

    You purchased vehicle from Cargiant in Jan 2018

    It went to RRG Peugeot for repairs
    When?.
    What repairs?
    Were they authorised by Cargiant under CRA 2015

    Following those repairs the vehicle made unacceptable clunking noises.
    Was that coincidental or due to RRG's repairs?
    The car went to Arnold Clark for diagnosis.
    Was that authorised by Cargiant?

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Des8,

      Thank you very much indeed for your response.

      Yes, the Car was purchased in Jan 2018 and I became aware of a fault 5 weeks later.

      On the instructions of Cargiant, the car was booked in with a Peugeot dealership for diagnostics. While waiting for my diagnostics appointment, the car developed a further two faults. These two faults along with the original fault were subsequently identified by Peugeot and repaired in June at a cost of £2800 and paid for by Cargiant. The car had a fuel pump, clutch and flywheel replaced.

      The clunking noises were reported to Cargiant within a week of the above repairs (this could be coincidental or botched repairs) and the car was taken back to RRG for inspection (twice). RRG could not find any fault with their workmanship, so they basically ‘washed their hands’ of the problem.

      Cargiant then instructed me to take the car to an Halfords Autocentre or ‘other’ VAT registered garage for diagnostics (paid for by them). Halfords could not identify the fault and therefore did not charge nor issue a report.

      I then took the car to alternative Peugeot main dealer for a diagnostic test. They were also unable to locate the fault and did not charge nor issue a report.

      All of the above has taken so long because I have been dependant, and had to wait for courtesy car availability. Cargiant were always kept up to date every step of the way.

      Because none of the garages could find/locate the fault and thus they did not charge, and I was never given a diagnostics report. I believe this is the problem Cargiant have?? Although I do have an email from the manager of Peugeot (Arnold Clarke) confirming the existence of the noise backed up by several videos I've made that capture the noise. These have been shared with Cargiant.



      Thank you

      Comment


      • #4
        I would respond to Cargiant that CRA 2015 Sec 23 clearly states the dealer has one opportunity to bring the vehicle to a satisfactory condition if required and that has to be done within a reasonable time.
        The fault was first reported in June 2018, and subsequent investigations have failed to resolve the issue.
        Six months is beyond a reasonable time.
        You now require a refund of the full price less an amount for fair usage which is to be agreed. (bollocks to their part exchange valuation! the reduction is negotiable and should be based on mileage and time you were able to use the car (6 months?)
        The vehicle is available for collection from... ....at their cost as per CRA 2015 sec7&8
        Refund is to be made in same manner as purchase price was paid eg bank transfer/credit to card account etc)
        (As you haven't mentioned it I assume not on finance)

        Comment


        • #5

          I can't thank enough Des8
          This is now the second time you have come to my aid.... https://legalbeagles.info/forums/for...ed-car-dilemma

          Same problem, it was just easier to create a new thread.

          I really do appreciate you giving your valuable time to help me.
          ​​​​​​​

          Yes, the car is finance free.

          Comment


          • #6
            posted wrong thread

            Comment


            • #7
              Update…

              Dealer responds to my letter, should my reply be ‘letter before action’??

              Having brought a troublesome car, I last notified the Dealer of another fault within 6 months of ownership (5 months & 15 days) and it is of my understanding the clock stops when the dealer was informed, so I am baffled as to their response below.

              Your help would be very much appreciated, thank you



              ME
              Thank you for your email.

              The Consumer Rights Act 2015 (Section 23) clearly states the dealer has one opportunity to bring the vehicle to a satisfactory condition if required and that has to be done within a reasonable time.

              The fault was first reported in June 2018, and subsequent investigations have failed to resolve the issue. Six months is beyond a reasonable time.
              I require a refund of the full purchase price less an amount for fair usage which is to be agreed.

              The car is available for collection from 4th February 2019 at your cost as per CRA 2015 (Section 7 & 8)

              Please contact me to arrange collection of the car within the next 14 days.



              DEALER
              Thank you for your email, the contents of which have been noted.

              We are fully aware of the Consumer Rights Act and as previously stated we feel that due to the time that has elapsed and the mileage covered since the date of purchase our offer to resolve this matter in our previous emails is fair and reasonable.

              If you feel that this is not the case I can only advise you to contact the Retail Motor Industry Federation who offer an ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) to all consumers. You can either write to them at The Retail Motor Industry Federation, National Conciliation Service, 1st Floor 2 Allerton Road, Rugby, CV23 OPA or contact them by Telephone on 01788 538317.

              With the above in mind, we feel it is of no benefit to arrange collection of your vehicle at this moment in time.

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you checked the valuation of the car on the likes of what car website or parkers to see what it might be valued at now based on its current mileage and condition? 25p per mile seems to be a little on the high side and I think you would be within your reasonable rights to question how they reached that amount and would certainly need to justify that charge and show how it was calculated and not based on some arbitrary amount.

                Equally, you need to do the same and I think the starting point is to get an estimate value and see if that is higher or lower than what they are offering. I think a pence per mile calculation sounds like a reasonable option, but if you take for example financed cars on PCP, you would tend to see excess mileage charges anywhere from 3.5p up to aruond 25-30p but typically it would more than likely be an anything up to 15p.

                If you can do some googling and research or even contact some finance companies to find out what their excess mileage charges are, and then take the average of those, that could be a reasonable way to calculate. Either way, I think their 25p per mile is on the higher side of things.

                Take a look at this website https://www.osv.ltd.uk/excess-mileage/ which shows 6 lenders with variable excess mileage charges albeit they are 2016 charges they probably haven't moved much. If you average them out together with the VAT you get 18.38p multiply that by the added mileage done and you get £3,156.21 which is somewhat less than their calculation of £4,293.00.

                Another way of looking at it is calling into a dealership who specialises in your make of vehicle and ask them for a blank copy of a typical PCP agreement and then check what the excess mileage is on that. You could also call the finance company direct and ask them to confirm by email or something.

                If you can come to a logical conclusion based on how you've calculated the deduction for you, it's likely that a court will find your workings reasonable. I don't think a letter before action should be the next step just yet until you have been able to firmly decide on how much you are seeking to deduct from the use of the car.



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                Comment


                • #9
                  So write back:
                  Letter before Action

                  Following our earlier correspondence etc etc
                  Your offer to use the ADR service of the Retail motor Industry is declined as i do not believe they will be impartial.
                  They are a body whose self declared aim is to "represent the interests of operators in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man providing sales and services to motorists and businesses."


                  If I do not receive your acceptance of my final right to reject within the next two weeks please note that it is my intention to initiate a court claim without further notice.
                  The courts offer a mediation service which might be acceptable to both of us as fully independent

                  Yrs etc etc


                  You may of course be happy to use the ADR they mention, or even go to the Motor Ombudsman (https://www.themotorombudsman.org/)
                  I personally have no faith in any of the ombudsman services (but that is possibly just me being grumpy!)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by R0b View Post
                    Have you checked the valuation of the car on the likes of what car website or parkers to see what it might be valued at now based on its current mileage and condition? 25p per mile seems to be a little on the high side and I think you would be within your reasonable rights to question how they reached that amount and would certainly need to justify that charge and show how it was calculated and not based on some arbitrary amount.

                    Equally, you need to do the same and I think the starting point is to get an estimate value and see if that is higher or lower than what they are offering. I think a pence per mile calculation sounds like a reasonable option, but if you take for example financed cars on PCP, you would tend to see excess mileage charges anywhere from 3.5p up to aruond 25-30p but typically it would more than likely be an anything up to 15p.

                    If you can do some googling and research or even contact some finance companies to find out what their excess mileage charges are, and then take the average of those, that could be a reasonable way to calculate. Either way, I think their 25p per mile is on the higher side of things.

                    Take a look at this website https://www.osv.ltd.uk/excess-mileage/ which shows 6 lenders with variable excess mileage charges albeit they are 2016 charges they probably haven't moved much. If you average them out together with the VAT you get 18.38p multiply that by the added mileage done and you get £3,156.21 which is somewhat less than their calculation of £4,293.00.

                    Another way of looking at it is calling into a dealership who specialises in your make of vehicle and ask them for a blank copy of a typical PCP agreement and then check what the excess mileage is on that. You could also call the finance company direct and ask them to confirm by email or something.

                    If you can come to a logical conclusion based on how you've calculated the deduction for you, it's likely that a court will find your workings reasonable. I don't think a letter before action should be the next step just yet until you have been able to firmly decide on how much you are seeking to deduct from the use of the car.



                    Thank you Rob for your responce.

                    I have been doing my homework whilst waiting for thier responses.

                    I paid £12300 for the car and it's current 'showroom' value is £10200-£10800 one repetable site even suggested £11100. As I paid the showroom price I believe the above is comparable.

                    I found the below site here very helpful and it has been spot on with the other above valuations.... https://www.themoneycalculator.com/v...l/PEUGEOT/RCZ/

                    Having looked into PCP excess milage charges etc, it appears that 10p per mile is average and also looking at lease cars with a new purchase value of 13k the excess milage charges are 6-8p pm.

                    As I have added value to the car including wheel related refurbishments (£480) carried out before I became aware of any faults, and new premium tires in December 2018 as a legal requirement (the originals were odd and half worn at best when purchased) I can prove this via a main dealer health report. I will use these improvements in any negotiations.

                    I will also be claiming compensation for loss of earnings as a result of all the faults since ownership.

                    Any feedback would be greatly be appreciated.

                    Thank you

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by des8 View Post
                      So write back:
                      Letter before Action

                      Following our earlier correspondence etc etc
                      Your offer to use the ADR service of the Retail motor Industry is declined as i do not believe they will be impartial.
                      They are a body whose self declared aim is to "represent the interests of operators in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man providing sales and services to motorists and businesses."


                      If I do not receive your acceptance of my final right to reject within the next two weeks please note that it is my intention to initiate a court claim without further notice.
                      The courts offer a mediation service which might be acceptable to both of us as fully independent

                      Yrs etc etc


                      You may of course be happy to use the ADR they mention, or even go to the Motor Ombudsman (https://www.themotorombudsman.org/)
                      I personally have no faith in any of the ombudsman services (but that is possibly just me being grumpy!)
                      Thank you once again Deb8 for your feedback and advice.

                      Personally, its strait to court as they've made me beyond grumpy!!

                      I would like to add the following if suitable?......

                      Please note:
                      As I do not own a garage/drive nor do I have access to either, the car, although no longer in use is parked on a public highway and therefore I have a legal obligation to tax and insure it. If you fail to collect the car after (date) I will be claiming £?? per week compensation against you to recover the these costs.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Without knowledge of make and model it is nigh impossible to work out a fair usage charge and I would not even bother trying to negotiate with them
                        They appear to have been delaying matters all along
                        They were notified in June 2018 of the fault and still have not repaired it.
                        They claim " no full diagnostics have been carried out or any confirmation received from any garage /main dealer confirming that the fault is present or can be repaired" but the onus is on them to prove the fault does not exist.
                        They have failed to repair as required so you are left with rejection.
                        If we knew make, model, price and year advice could be given on fair usage charge for the 6 months up to time of rejection (not the present time)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Letter before action now sent… thank you Des8 for the template.


                          The car in question is….
                          Peugeot RCZ Red Carbon (Nov 2014) RRP £29500.00.
                          Purchased from Cargiant on 6th Jan 2018.
                          Cost £12300.00 with 32.800 miles.
                          Latest fault reported to dealer on 26th July 2018 (approx. mileage 38k)
                          Rejected the car on 27th Dec 2018 (mileage 49.400)
                          Total mileage covered since ownership (6th Jan – 27th Dec) 16.600
                          Mileage covered from first reporting fault to date of rejection (26th July - 27th December) approx. 11.400

                          Thank you

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Most calculators would suggest a depreciation in the area of £2000 (the one I tend to use is the one you mentioned earlier!)
                            Depreciation does not necessarily equate to a fair usage allowance, which I do not believe should be based on a blanket mileage charge of ?p per mile.

                            I gather you have had a number of faults with this vehicle, which you think a reasonable person would deem to make it unsatisfactory.
                            I find it odd they admit there is a "clunking" noise (not normal) and although several garages appointed by Cargiant have been unable to identify the fault,
                            they want yet a further chance to discover the cause. Presumably they expect you to pay the cost of returning the vehicle as well (cheeky buggers!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Cheeky buggers indeed. If this isn't enough proof of a fault then what is?.... www.penninehomesecurity.com/rcz-clunking

                              Comment

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