Problem with second hand vehicle bought from a dealer. Advice needed.

**ostell** · 1st November 2018, 07:59:AM

Somewhere in the CRA is a bit about the clock stopping while it is not in your possession so add up those times and I think you will be well within the 6 months. Point this out to him

You will not be able to claim your full cost from him as you have had some use from the car so make sure you have full details of that. But you should be able to add in your out of pocket expenses caused by the failure of the car.

Detail those, add them to the initial cost and add these to the letter.

**fandabby** · 1st November 2018, 10:07:AM

Looking through some of my notes this may be useful:

Consumer Rights Act Chapter 2, Section 19, Sub Section 11 – Claiming damages

and

Consumer Rights Act Chapter 2, Section 22 – Time limit for short-term right to reject
(Presumably same principle for the up to 6 months but please check because not entirely sure) ?

**samy** · 1st November 2018, 21:36:PM

Hello, thank you for your reply ostell and fandabby . I feel i need to update with the letters i sent and e-mail parts to avoid any reply's to the topic that will deviate to already done steps. I apologise for the already long read and thank you for the patience, but more to come.

First e-mail that contained the scan of the first letter:

-----Original Message----- From: *****me
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2018 10:44 PM
To: dealer e-mail.
Subject: RE: REG of vehicle

Hello,

Please find attached the document, as discussed in the phone
conversations that I had today on 01******** at 9:03AM and 10:05AM.

Letter one content:

Dear Sir/Madam

RE: Purchase Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD
Reg: ********* VIN: 1A*********

I am writing with regard to the purchase of the above vehicle on 21^th April 2018 with the mileage 88405.
As till present date 5^th October 2018 the vehicle was returned multiple times for rectifying some faults that re appeared from the first week of owning the vehicle with no success.
Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 I am exercising my right to reject the vehicle for a full refund as I find it unsatisfactory and I consider "dealer name" had more than a reasonable time and occasions to rectify the problems.

I will look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Yours faithfully, ******

Second letter:

22 October 2018

Dear Sir/Madam

RE: Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD
Reg: ******* VIN: 1A************

I have not received a reply to my letter dated 5 October 2018 regarding the above vehicle which I bought from you on 21 April 2018.
I am once again requesting a full refund of the purchase price of £8495 on the grounds that the goods were not of satisfactory quality under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 Section 24 due to multiple repair attempts last time turning into a breakdown after 49 miles after the car was collected following a repair for a fault that appeared from the first week of getting the car.
I would like a reply as soon as possible but not later than 30 October 2018. If you do not agree to the refund, could you please then send me a detailed response saying why you do not agree.
To avoid taking court action, I am willing to use Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem.
Please note as I rejected the car already under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and the car is in your possession was declared SORN and also insurance is suspended.

I look forward to your acknowledgement.
Yours faithfully

the dealer reply on my first e-mail:

From: "name - dealer name" dealer e-mail
Date: 25 October 2018 at 13:55:24 BST
To: "my name" >my e-mail>
Subject: Re: REGOFVehicle

Hi Mr xxxxxx

Apologies for the delay in replying

The gearbox company had cracked the crankshaft wheel when putting the gearbox back in. We have removed the gearbox and replaced the part and the car is now working perfectly.

We have tested the car several times each day for the last 3 days and the car is absolutely fine.

Unfortunately a refund is not possible as you have had the car 6 months and done 4,000 miles in the car. The car was and is fit for the purpose. If the car was not fit for the purpose you could not have done 4,000 miles in it. The car also had a full RAC inspection immediately prior to sale.

We appreciate that there have been delays in getting your car returned which was completely out of our control and entirely due to delays at the gearbox company.

We can offer the following options for you:-

1 We can return the car back to you today, tomorrow or next week.

2 You can arrange to collect the vehicle yourself

3 We can buy the car back from you for £6,000. You will need to forward the documents and paperwork for the car.

4 We can extend the warranty on the vehicle to you by a further 12 months with the RAC

5 We can undertake a new MOT and RAC inspection if required by Saturday 27 October 2018.

The road tax and insurance is your responsibility as you are the owner of the vehicle.

Kind regards

I have not responded to the e-mail above at the time and another followed:

On 30/10/2018 13:10,dealer e-mail wrote:

Hi

We have mot'd the car.

Are you in a position to collect your car or reply to the email.

Regards

name

Yesterday 31.10.2018, over the day they insisted with 2 phone calls and 2 texts that i choose not to answer since on 05.10.2018 when i informed the dealer over phone that my phone calls are recorded which was considered fine and choose to still have the conversation, my intentions, and that any further communication will be done in writing from now on... also a communication e-mail was passed to me.

text content: Hi We have emailed you a few times and tried calling. Can you please reply the emails as soon as possible. Thanks name of the dealership

my reply was:

On 31 Oct 2018, at 22:58, me <my e-mail> wrote:

Hello, I Have formally rejected the car within the prescribed time under the relevant statute and within my rights as a consumer. I believe the car is not fit for purpose and that there was a catastrophic failure of essential components within the engine and other parts of the car which rendered the car unfit for purpose and potentially hazardous to use. I acted in good faith and have given you several opportunities to rectify the faults. You failed each time. I am currently seeking legal advice and will be sending a letter before claim shortly unless you agree to my initial request and refund the full amount I paid for the vechicle.
Kind Regards,

and very fast I received a reply:

On 31/10/2018 23:21, dealer e-mail wrote:

Hi

Thanks for your email.

We dispute your claim that the car is not fit for purpose.

The car is working perfectly and available for you to collect.

You have had considerable use of the vehicle for many months and covered 4,000 miles in the car.

We have made an offer to purchase the vehicle from you considering the use of the vehicle that you have enjoyed. Alternatively we have offered to get the car delivered to you.

to which I my reply 1h later was (somehow made me feel good that i am keeping someone awake):

Hello,

I rejected the car under Consumer Rights Act 2015; Section 24 Right to price reduction or final right to reject subsection (5).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...ion/24/enacted

The car covered in total 3905 miles from when first collected on 21.04.2018, of which more then 700miles were done while the car was with you multiple times (picture attached with last recorded) and I am not accepting a reduction in refund except the miles I have done aprox 3300 miles again in line with relevant section of law which i have not been present in any of your replys as you cannot make a offer to purchase or buy back the car since i already rejected the car in the 6 months on 5.10.2018 and at the time of rejection the car was not fit for purpose.

-first collected on 21.04.2018 and returned 2 weeks later on 05.05.2018 (reading 88505 miles) when first attempt to repair was done that lasted 2.5 hours after which the car was returned 1 h later after 8 miles and left with Dealername do the problem reoccurring;
-second time the car was collected on 31.05.2018 (reading 88888 miles) and yet again was returned on 07.08.2018 (reading 91762miles) due to creating problems with the gearbox while we tried to use the car to go on a long trip and we did not get to destination and we had to return;(Not fit for purpose)
-third time the car was collected on 01.09.2018 was returned on 02.09.2018, 130 miles later for the same problem;
-forth time the car was collected on 04.10.2018 and returned on the same date 49 miles later; same problem occurred and not long after the car stopped and I did not got to destination and had to pay a recovery platform as the car broke down on motorway and would not start anymore.(Not fit for purpose and putting me and my family in a dangerous position).

Delays of a total of 83 days (26 days second time, 25 days third time. 32 days forth time) as only 84 days the car was in my possession in total till the date I rejected the car. In line with the Consumer Rights Act 2015 section 23 Right to repair or replacement subsection (2)(a)do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer.

All paperwork that has come with the car will be returned to you when you accept the rejection as your offer is not either in line with Consumer Rights Act 2015 or acceptable.

I attached in the previous reply the diagnostic reports that I already passed to your coleagues each time I returned the car and the one from 04.10.2018

My statement from previous e-mail that I am currently seeking legal advice still stands.

Regards,

Diagnostic reports short version: first gearbox fault code is present all 4 reports besides other fault codes to engine, abs as it seems every time i took the car back when the problem reoccurred along the initial something else added to the list....

NO further comm.

I am aware that is somewhere something related to the clock stop while the car is with them, but regardless i am in 6 months no matter how is it looked at; am I right with this? I am aware that i asked for a full refund which was advised initially by citizen advice just before the car was passed on to me after last fix, as they considered that the initial fault is still present conform to the diagnostic reports i have each time. A second call to citizen advice after i have not received any response to my initial letter and e-mail reinforced that and they said they stop here and pass the case to trading standards. Yes i know that trading standards are not relevant in this case as they do not deal with civil cases... regardless of this i was surprised that they still contacted me and provided a e-mail address to send them all the details in regards to the matter and also confirmed that they cannot help me with anything but might look into it.

Now i think my next step would be to send another letter setting up the claim as already suggested (thank you ostell for confirmation), but i am a bit confused with:

1.on reduction on refund/deduction for use as i cannot find any reference for example pence/mile tho trading standards agent said it can be between 40p to **p mile? but this is not present in any invoice or paperwork i received from the dealer buying the car so is no reference to it anywhere.

(8)If the consumer exercises the final right to reject, any refund to the consumer may be reduced by a deduction for use, to take account of the use the consumer has had of the goods in the period since they were delivered, but this is subject to subsections (9) and (10).

2.i am shocked about dealers behaviour and i do not know if he pretends or acts like this on purpose? i was wrong to say i am returning the documents and manuals only when we agree?

3. the car is with the dealer, and not in view last i checked, Insurance run out on 30.10 and i have not renew, I sorned but that takes a while as i still got a monthly payment going out

4 in regards to costs what should i put (during first long period repair i took temporary cover through the insurance company as i was entitled to up to 30 days i extended by a week at a time), Second time i returned the car i had to get a whole policy from scratch for the second car as i did not have any temporary cover available to use.

Any thoughts on all this? is it worth going to court? or should i just try to cut as much as possible my losses?

**ostell** · 1st November 2018, 22:50:PM

No you put in as much as possible for the additional payments you have had to make that you would not have had to make if the car was working. What about the cost of that holiday that had to be cut short? Add them all up and add to the purchase cost of the car and that is what you are expecting back from him. This gives you a little room to negotiate. Inland revenue rate for claiming mileage is 45p (?) but this includes an allowance for tax and insurance etc. You have met the costs of those so you may be able to argue a lower rate, ie 20p a mile.

**fandabby** · 2nd November 2018, 00:15:AM

Sounds like they trying to intimidate you into accepting their deal.

From your events they failed to fix original fault and you have been very willing in hoping they get it right. Unfortunately it hasn’t worked and it’s cost you in time, allowing lengthy repairs which have failed, money, your recovery and loss of holiday.

Don’t give in to their buying back. That is incorrect you have rejected so they aren’t buying back they are refunding. This is where the negotiations happen like Ostell has said. Include every penny of your losses to offset their low offer to build it back up..

**samy** · 3rd November 2018, 16:26:PM

just in... Am I missing something here?
------------------------------------------------------
Sat, 3 Nov 2018 15:20:26 -0000
Re: regno********
From Dealer
to: me

Hi

The current trade price is £3,715 for the car in good condition. Please see attached.

You have had substantial use of the car, and the car is in perfect mechanical condition.

We have offered you an extended warranty or to buy back your car for £6,000.

We do not accept your rejection of the car.
-----------------------------------------------------------

attached is a quote from we buy any car....

**ostell** · 3rd November 2018, 17:12:PM

So it looks like a letter before claim setting out why you are rejecting the car, quote the relevant bits of CRA at him Add in a brief summary of dates
Total the costs ie

Purchase price
Wasted holiday
Cost of alternative transport
etc

Less

3300 miles @ 20 p per mile = £660

See what comes back but then keep the total under £10,000 so that it stays in the small claims court.

Post your letter here first for critique before you send.

**samy** · 4th November 2018, 20:07:PM

hello as requested i drafted the letter:

To: Dealer and address From: me and my address

05 November 2018
Letter before court claim
Dear Sir/Madam

Reference: Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD purchased on 14.10.2018 which I rejected on 05.10.2015 as not fit for purpose and claim for refund according to Consumer Rights Act 2015 section 24.

As it has not been possible to resolve this matter amicably, and it is apparent that court action may be necessary, I write in compliance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

You are rejecting my right to reject and dispute the fact that was not fit for purpose at time of rejection. I Have formally rejected the car within the prescribed time under the relevant statute and within my rights as a consumer.

The car covered in total 3905 miles from when first collected on 21.04.2018, of which more than 700 miles were done while the car was with you multiple times and I am not accepting a reduction in refund except the miles I have done approx. 3300 miles again in line with relevant section of law which I have not been present in any of your replies as you cannot make an offer to purchase or buy back the car since I already rejected the car in the 6 months on 5.10.2018 and at the time of rejection the car was not fit for purpose.

*first collected on 21.04.2018 and returned 2 weeks later on 05.05.2018 (reading 88534 miles) when first attempt to repair was done that lasted 2.5 hours after which the car was returned 1 h later after 8 miles and left with dealer name do the problem reoccurring;
*second time the car was collected on 31.05.2018 (reading 88888 miles) and yet again was returned on 07.08.2018 (reading 91762 miles) due to creating problems with the gearbox while we tried to use the car to go on a long trip and we did not get to destination and we had to return;(Not fit for purpose)
*third time the car was collected on 01.09.2018 was returned on 02.09.2018, 130 miles later for the same problem;
*forth time the car was collected on 04.10.2018 and returned on the same date 49 miles later; same problem occurred and not long after the car stopped and I did not got to destination and had to pay a recovery platform as the car broke down on motorway and would not start anymore.(Not fit for purpose and putting me and my family in a dangerous position).

From you I am claiming now 9975.26£.

I have calculated this sum based on:
*8495£ purchase price of the motor vehicle less 3300 miles@20p = 660£
*872.67£ cost for alternative transport over the period till reject total of 83 days.
*524.52£ wasted holiday cost loss as first 2 attempts to fix the car failed.
*117.90£ Recovery cost do to breakdown after collecting the car from you 4^th time that failed to sort the initial problem and created additional issues.
*598.07£ cost with the car as was my intention to keep the car for at least another 3 years 45k miles.
*30£ Legal advice I had to take do to not accepting my right to reject. (this will change if i require more advice)

I have not included any amount for time wasted and stress or interest as is absolutely impossible to quantify.

Listed below are the documents on which I intend to rely in my claim against you:
-Diagnostic scans done to the vehicle every time the problem occurred;
-receipts statements and pictures at relevant dates and facts;
-my communication to you in writing posted and signed for;
-my communications to you via e-mail and your replies;
-the invoice of initial purchase which also states Consumer Rights Act 2015.

In accordance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct I would request that you provide me with copies of the following documents:
Any communication and records relating to the vehicle in question covering the period 14.04.2018 – 05.10.2018 by recorded post.

I can confirm once again that I would be agreeable to mediation and would consider any other system of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) in order to avoid the need for this matter to be resolved by the courts.

I would invite you to put forward any proposals in this regard.

In closing, I would draw your attention to paragraphs 15 and 16 of the Practice Direction which gives the courts the power to impose sanctions on the parties if they fail to comply with the direction including failing to respond to this letter before claim.

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 28 days of this letter.

Should I not receive a response to my letter within this time frame, then I anticipate that court action will be commenced with no further reference to you.

Yours faithfully,

Signed

Should i enclose with the letter the whole background, diagnostics and stuff?

What should i rectify, very hard to cut it down in size already...

**ostell** · 4th November 2018, 21:40:PM

Can you quote the relevant sections of the CRA 2015.

Check the dates on the first line.

**fandabby** · 4th November 2018, 21:51:PM

Some referencing which may help you:

The claim is brought under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as follows:

* Consumer Rights Act 2015 Chapter 2 Section 9 – Goods to be of satisfactory quality
* Consumer Rights Act 2015 Chapter 2 Section 10 – Goods to be fit for particular purpose
* Consumer Rights Act 2015 Chapter 2 Section 11 – Goods to be as described (IF THEY DESCRIBED IT AS GOOD VEHICLE WHICH RUNS WELL FOR INSTANCE AT POINT OF SALE/PURCHASE)
* Consumer Rights Act 2015 Chapter 2, Section 19 Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods
* Consumer Rights Act 2015 Chapter 2 Section 20 – Right to Reject
* Consumer Rights Act 2015 Chapter 2 Section 24 – Right to Price Reduction or Final Right to Reject
* Consumer Rights Act Chapter 2, Section 19, Sub Section 11 – Claiming damages

**des8** · 4th November 2018, 21:53:PM

Much too long!

Dear Sirs.
Re Chrysler: Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD reg no:
purchased on ????
Delivery date 21.04.2018

You are aware of the problems I have had with this vehicle,
To reiterate on 07/08/2018 a problem became obvious within the gearbox, and in spite of three attempts to repair the same problem occurred on 04/10/2018.
Therefore, exercising my rights as bestowed by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I reject the vehicle as it is unsatisfactory, as you were advised on 05/10/2018.
You have disputed my right to reject, but it is unacceptable you do not recognise my statutory rights.
Accordingly I require the following payment from you within seven days of delivery of this letter:
£8495.00 purchase price (don't suggest a deduction to him!)
£872.67 cost for alternative transport (was this a hire car?)
£514.42 wasted holiday cost due to car breakdown.
£117.90 Breakdown Recovery cost

Total: £9,999.99

If you fail to respond within seven days I shall initiate court proceedings without further notice.

Yours FFLy.

You can't claim for seeking legal advice, and I'm not at all sure that future losses (*598.07£ cost with the car as was my intention to keep the car for at least another 3 years 45k miles) would be met.

At this stage you don't have to give him chapter and verse.
Just enough to know what and why.

The car was fit for purpose (it 's purpose is to be used as a car, and it was!).
It would be deemed unsatisfactory as it failed to meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account of things like its age, value, history, mileage, make and description.—

I have taken pennies off your holiday claim to get figure below £10,000

You needn't stress over wasted time and stress as you would never be successful under that heading

**ostell** · 4th November 2018, 22:18:PM

I was suggesting the mileage reduction as a means of trying to keep the dealer happier as he was wanting to make a reduction for use, The courts would make a reduction for use anyway.It also helps by keeping the figure below the £10,000

**samy** · 4th November 2018, 22:25:PM

ostell miss typed...was april... not 10 Thank you for noticing it... stress and and sleep seems to affect my attention.
@Des88 Thank You for your different approach cost for alternative transport was temporary cover bought by week and i was getting another week and another and so on, on top of the existing policy to use another car, for commuting and when the mess with the holiday happened as they offered a courtesy car only mid September (2 weeks or so before i broke down). I will re write and post back. The 598.07£ represents 4 tyres (334.80£) i had to buy shortly after i got the car and the pressure sensors i discovered later in June where missing. At that point I was convinced everything is fine after their initial attempts and i could not be bothered to return the car for that issue.Thank you again for your time, I will re write and post shortly.

**des8** · 4th November 2018, 22:25:PM

Yep, I know ostell, but there were other things to be discarded to get below the £10,000 figure.
The sums in Samy's letter totalled over £10630.00

Re the tyres.. might be worth keeping that up your sleeve for when (and if) they make a deduction for usage.
Altho'you could rejig the figures now, allowing a deduction for usage as previously suggested by O
The important thing at the mo is to keep claim below £10,000.00

Problem with second hand vehicle bought from a dealer. Advice needed.

Problem with second hand vehicle bought from a dealer. Advice needed.

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Announcement

Court Claim ?