A joke

[Patchie]

I have has depression on and off for over 40 years. I know how to cope with it but sometimes it can be too much. I have had experience a year or so ago where a visit from a bailiff sent me over the edge, I took a packing knife from my shop in front of him and walked away. I cut my left wrist several times though not too seriously came around to my senses and saw my doctor. The bailiff waited for my wife and daughter and charges for the time.
For my latest episode I saw High Court Collections from Market Rasen, even though these two jokers were from Ashford in Kent, a few months back over a debt. The debt wasn't a surprise but the way the company have dealt with it seems excessive. It got resolved badly. My wife was not too happy and my mental state at the time was rocky to say the least. I did get into my head that that was it with my wife, it wasn't but that was the way it seemed. I had told these two i did have mental health problems and seeing bailiffs or whatever they are was not helpful. They did manage to squeeze a£1000 from us - from my wife and my youngest son chipped in. My state of mind went and I went indoors, got a kitchen knife and walked off past these two men and stayed away for the night and the best part of the next day. Not a pleasant experience and could of ended badly. I did inform the company who had set this in motion what had happened and it got back to these two.
Last Thursday I was visited by these two again at my shop, which is the cause of most of my problems. To reduce tension I am in the process of closing the business. Not an easy decision but one I had to do. Anyway, one came into my shop and started talking loudly about things with one of my shop neighbours in the shop. He then started that he wanted money and so on. Managed to sort something out, not to my liking, but anything to get rid of him. He kept referring back to his partner who was sitting in a van - probably charged to me. He said that his partner wanted to see me. I met them outside my shop. The other man smiled and then opened his left hand and showed me a retractable stanley knife and asked if i needed to borrow it and obvious reference to the last time. It may of been his idea of a joke but it was not funny. He made a disparaging remark about our house having a new front door, that if we can afford that we can pay this. I explained that the door was paid for by money my wife had received from her late father just before he died at the end of May specifically for that purpose. The debt is on the business anyway not home so it is none of his business. Then he made a remark about my wife being frightening. She was not happy the day they called around previously - really it was the first time she has really lost it with me in thirty years of marriage - but it soon passed. She is a lower school teacher and as gentle as anything.
I got rid of both of them before i did something I regretted. I thought that certainly one of them had done wrong. I did some research and basically found out that he had. So far i have written to the Company and informed them of what I was doing so back off until things were sorted out. I have written to the Court Manager at Northampton Bulk Court explaining what had happened. I was also told by them not to talk to the company who started this - so i have written to them as well explaining what had happened and that is was under their name they were doing it. I have threatened with the OFT. Is there anything else that i can do?
I acknowledge i owe a debt. I have asked the company who started it that i will pay them what i owe as we have the funds - it is a little more complicated as they, as a publishing company, owe me money through royalties for my book. Their accountant is a bit too trigger happy. I expect that the MD will sort it out.
I am also wary of HCC as the fees they are asking for are bigger than the original debt. I want to hit them where ever I can how I can. I don;t see that they belong to a trade body which is another avenue of action so they seem a real bunch of cowboys. The Court I hope will not be happy.
So really that is my tale. That is what i have done. I just don't want to be alone in fighting this so amy suggestions what i can do let me know. I am currently fighting two developers who want to build retail parks in my town because they believe " the town needs a retail park". I also was at the forefront of fighting Tesco to a standstill so i am not frightened of taking these things on I just have not the skills or knowledge to fight this one. And I still battling depression but I will not let these people take advantage or take the mickey out of what is a serious illness which the collection industry actually contributes to.
Thanks for reading

[SpringerSpaniel]

Re: A joke

I am sorry to hear of your experiences.

Were they collecting debt owed to a public authority such as a council, HMRC or court fines ? This may seem an odd or trivial point, but if they are then they are the agents of the OC; the OC is vicariouslly liable for the conduct of its agent and public bodies have a duty not to discriminate against you due to your disability in this way.

I am sure other members will advise further but you may be recommended to make a Form 4 Complaint about the bailiffs concerned.

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

I am sorry to hear of your experiences.

Were they collecting debt owed to a public authority such as a council, HMRC or court fines ? This may seem an odd or trivial point, but if they are then they are the agents of the OC; the OC is vicariouslly liable for the conduct of its agent and public bodies have a duty not to discriminate against you due to your disability in this way.

I am sure other members will advise further but you may be recommended to make a Form 4 Complaint about the bailiffs concerned.

It is a company debt from a company whose accountant is of the hard headed type - pay up or I will send the boys round. Everybody else I have debts with (mostly small) will be paid when i get my stock sold. It is from a County Court which is why i have written to them telling them what is going on and sent a copy of the letter I sent to high Court Collections. The Court I hope will take a dim view of this dimwit and the company he works for. Having read various threads it does seem that the collections profession is riddled with idiots with no brain cells. I am also tempted to ask my eldest son who is a serving policeman about the showing me a knife - it was certainly not a pen knife and what would he need it for anyway? What i am hoping for is the original company to take the debt back, tell HCC to take a running jump. What would a Form 4 complaint do?

[teaboy2]

Re: A joke

You said they owe you in royalties, is what they owe you more than what you owe them, and how did you come to being owing them money, when they published your book?

As for the knife, well is a criminal offence to carry a knife in public, so yes report it to your son! What they did when showing you the knife knowing what you did last time, is also harassment and a breach of protection from harassment act 1997. also a criminal offence!

[SpringerSpaniel]

Re: A joke

If I have understood correctly from your posts, they were court bailiffs enforcing a CCJ. They are therefore acting on behalf of a public body. ONE of the things you should do is to contact your MP about this.

As for the OC, do you have to continue trading with this company ? Is there an alternative supplier you could use who might have better business practices ?

[ploddertom]

Re: A joke

What has happened here is that someone you owe money to has taken you to Court and obtained a CCJ against you? did you receive the original documentation? Did you acknowledge service? Did you defend the action? Were they given Judgment in Default?

As no monies were paid after the CCJ the Creditor has transferred the Judgment to the High Court for enforcement, which is where you are now. Depending on the answer above will depend on the advice offered.

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

I own a bookshop and I took the books to sell. It is a long story and one I am not proud of. But they do owe me royalties and no it will cover the cost of the books but it will reduce it. They have my second book which they will publish once I have paid this of. This time I will pay for them properly. Credit crunch does things to your head.

[bluebottle]

Re: A joke

Right. This matter needs to be reported to the police without delay. I would suggest this is done with the assistance of your local MP. If the bailiff knew you were liable to self-harm and he produced a knife, in a public place, not only is he committing an offence relating to possession of the knife, but he could also be liable under legislation designed to protect those with mental health problems. Do not take any crap from the police about it being a civil matter and don't let them fob you off. If the civilian support staff on the front desk at the police station tries to fob you off, ask to speak to a sworn/warranted police officer.

Depending on the rank of the police officer you speak to, the usual route for complaining about police officers fobbing you off is -

Duty Officer (Inspector) -> Station Superintendent -> Divisional Commander (Chief Superintendent) -> Chief Constable -> IPCC

The bailiffs/HCEOs need hauling before a judge for their actions and their certificates discharged (cancelled). IMHO their behaviour raises serious questions as to their fitness to act as bailiffs/HCEOs.

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

That i understand but i cannot recall any paperwork but it maybe around. The fact that I owe money is not a problem it is what they actually did that is the problem. To produce a knife and ask if i do I need it after the last time they were around is that the sign of a professional doing his job? It is their conduct that bothers me.

[teaboy2]

Re: A joke

That i understand but i cannot recall any paperwork but it maybe around. The fact that I owe money is not a problem it is what they actually did that is the problem. To produce a knife and ask if i do I need it after the last time they were around is that the sign of a professional doing his job? It is their conduct that bothers me.

As your son is a serving police officer then you are in a great position to have these idiots arrested for what they did! I am sure if i was a police officer and someone did to my father what they did you that i would not hesitate to arrest the idiots striaght away and throw them in a cell.

[bluebottle]

Re: A joke

The other matter that needs to be addressed is the fitness of these two morons to act as bailiffs. I would recommend the police do what they can first, obtain a copy of any report from the force solicitor and then send a letter to the District Judge(s) at the court(s) that issued the bailiffs' certificates. You will need to establish whether the DJ requires you to submit a Form 4 complaint. Due to the circumstances, do not be surprised if the bailiffs suffer the cancellation of their certificates without a Form 4 complaint and without a hearing. This happened to a Ross & Roberts bailiff earlier this year. In that case, their behaviour was deplorable, a view expressed by the police who attended.

With regard to asking your eldest son, who is a policeman, to intervene, as a retired policeman myself, it might be better if you reported the matter. If your son became personally involved in the case, my fear is that it could have an adverse effect. However, knowing that the police look after their own, I would not be surprised if your eldest son's colleagues make sure these two morons get what's coming to them.

[teaboy2]

Re: A joke

God i wish it would be possible to see these morons being arrested on video tape, that would make me smile lol

[SpringerSpaniel]

Re: A joke

If there are problems with how the judgement was obtained, eg it was a judgement in default which you owuld have wanted to defend - or you wanted to exert a right of set-off, you may want to post again, possibly on a separate thread, for advice/discussion about the underlying dispute ratehr than the behaviour of the bailiffs themselves.

[Bill-K]

Re: A joke

I don't usually get involved with bailiff issues as it isn't my area, Patchie., but this is such an appalling story it almost beggars belief. I bow to the knowledge of the others here, but I am surprised that you didn't involve your son in this earlier. I believe that you clearly informed the bailiffs AND HCC of your mental condition - and therefore of your vulnerability. Yet it appears that HCC sent the same two bailiffs after you despite this.

Now, I'm sure there is no end of criminal law which can be applied, as Bluebottle and Teaboy have posted - but these guys are not that thick, and they knew what they were doing when they got you out of the shop and away from any witnesses. I've been driving club-night taxis for 5 years, and my experience tells me that unless you have proof of what took place outside - or witnesses to it - then it didn't happen. I don't mean I disbelieve you - but you could get the police involved and get an incident number, and the plods will interview the bailiffs and you, and get two different stories. It's simply their word against yours, and they won't be fazed by this at all - they are used to it, I'm sure. The police won't prosecute, and the court won't be able to act on your unfounded allegations. I still think you should report it as a crime, so that it gets logged into the system. There is also a chance that the bailiffs might say something which proves they were lying to the police, but you will need other evidence to show this. Perhaps they might say something which contradicts the official notices issued to you, or the various charges they have made for their 'work.' But I wouldn't want to raise your hopes of getting this slung out of court purely on the basis of an unsupported allegation.

If you want this slung out of court, then I think you need to do as Springer suggests, and start a separate thread for this - to avoid confusing what I believe are two entirely separate issues. PlodderTom has, I believe, specific experience of dealing with these issues in court, and will be able to help you there. His questions need clear answers, and I think that aspect of the matter can be dealt with properly if it is separated from the problem we have here, which is the appalling conduct of HCC and its bailiffs.

What I believe MIGHT be of use is the FACT that you are vulnerable, and that you informed HCC of this. You should, I am sure, have a clear record of HCC's written response(a) and/or acknowledgement of this fact. The FACT that HCC subsequently sent these thugs after you puts them in a very difficult position, which I am sure the others here will be able to explain. This should then stop any further harrassment, I believe. It may also transpire that these thugs are not properly registered or licensed, in which case, you could at least cause them some pain - and also HCC for employing them and flouting the debt collection regulations.

If this has caused you to shut down your business, then that may well be another reason to pursue HCC. I am sure that the main reason why bailiffs are forbidden from harrassing vulnerable people is precisely because it can ruin their entire lives - and even lead them to take their own lives. I think you need to gather up every little piece of evidence you have, and continue to gather it - to show that you are being harrassed unlawfully. I doubt if you will feel like it, but it might even be worth considering giving them another chance to hang themselves by visiting your shop. Only this time, you get your son and a colleague to pose as customers - and you get some good quality audio/video footage.

I'm sorry if my post - or my suggestions - might go against other posters here, and I bow to their superior knowledge of the law. But we are talking about realities here (or so I believe) - and I really don't think a criminal prosecution is actually a realistic prospect here, so far, given the evidence we have. I feel that some of the suggestions here may raise Patchie's hopes without really giving him much chance of a successful outcome. I hope I haven't offended anyone by spurting out my unlearnéd opinion here - but this is one helluva horror story - and I just had to say my piece and air my feelings on the matter. LOL - I'll crawl back into the undergrowth, now !!!

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

I am not sure why but I am go to talk to his girlfriend who is a CID officer what i can do.I do realise that they will deny it and that is probably why i did not say anything. I have written to the OFT and I am considering a letter to the Trading Standards where the company is based. HCC never acknowledged anything. Indeed i had no contact from then until their man walked in my shop. But these two knew so i presume the company knows as well. The chances are they are they may think I am faking being mentally ill and trying to call my bluff. Tough luck boys I have medical proof enough and enough character witnesses to prove it. I will see what my son's G/f comes up with.
I think that if enough stink is raised things will get sorted out. The company who started this I have told. They have been told that this was done in their name so they don't want that to happen. Also i can sort out the debt without any problem with them now so they don't need a collections company. The Court i think will take a very dim view of this.
I just want to stand up to these people and take them to task using brains and the law to beat them and hopefully add the the growing evidence that these collection companies, though needed i suspect, need to change what they do.I did read that 50% of people who came in contact with bailiffs felt suicidal and I do suspect that some may well of gone beyond the strong negative feeling of suicide and done something physical. Believe me you do not want to go there - I have a few times and it is the worst feeling you can ever have. And this is despite seeing two people, on separate occasions, commit suicide in front of trains - it should put you off but it doesn't.