Council tax arrears

[cara99]

My unemployed brother (mental health issues) lives in an inherited house. After several years my sister moved in. He completed a 'council tax reduction' application, making note of our sister and her circumstances.

Several years passed. Before Christmas, my sister noticed a large monthly payment had been taken by the council - although the rates account is in my brothers name, the direct debit was set up from my sisters account, Unsure as to why, we as a family, decided to address the problem of my brothers unopened mail in order to hopefully find out why this increased amount had been taken.

Shockingly, amongst the hundreds plus letters, there were 2 unopened cheques from the council, amounting to over £700. These were dated 2012 and 2013. however, did However, there was no letter to shine any light on unexpectedly deduction by the council.

Today we went to the council offices re the cheques hopefully they could in some form be reissued. Initially, we were hopeful and in fact we got as far as giving bank details, where up a snag arose as the direct debits were taken from my sisters account. This prompted several phone calls to various departments, where upon we were informed the account was over £3,000 in arrears and in fact, the council were already - prior to our visit - set to take the outstanding amount in one fell swoop, without any notice. To say we were floored is an understatement.

Seemingly, when my brother filled in the online council tax form, although being absolutely truthful in every respect, he had omitted to declare the fact she also had "a financial interest" in the property. This seemingly relevant fact had never entered his, or for that matter any of the other family members, head. Particularly as this wasn't queried throughout the application, to our knowledge.

The cheques have now been held and that amount deducted from the arrears.

I have come home and as a test to satisfy myself that my brother hadn't missed anything, completed the online form. Nowhere, was there an opportunity to declare a financial interest, other than by my bother as 'owner occupier'. My sister was, correctly, stated as a non-dependant - the one status which applied out of, I think 3, which did not include 'owner occupier'.

It would have been devastating had they would have tried to take over £3,000 from her account in 2 days. They seemingly had knowledge of the issue before we had visited the office today ... a complete coincidence, prompted by the outdated cheques. How had they come upon this relevant fact, when we were not aware of it?

We have many unanswered questions, but I am hoping to start here with advice hopefully. This financial burden will fall to the family, as my brother with his mental health issues is unemployed and living hand to mouth - supported by us. (He is fighting for benefits, which is struggling to retain).

My brother did not deliberately set out to mislead and as a family, we do not think he is to blame for the arrears ... perhaps you will point out otherwise.

Do you think we will have to find the money for the arrears? I have asked for the relevant section, on the form, where this situation could have been avoided. Incidentally, I have filled in the form from start to finish and can see that my brother has been over and above truthful about all the circumstances, as he saw it.

Please advise.

[charitynjw]

Re: Council tax arrears

Hi cara99

I'm no expert on CT reduction, so I'll give [MENTION=15129]Crazy council[/MENTION] & [MENTION=141]enaid[/MENTION] a nudge.

There could be a possible carer 'disregard' & if so, maybe a further reduction for single person/severely disabled (if the criteria are met).

[enaid]

Re: Council tax arrears

Hi and welcome,
Firstly when your brother lived alone he would have had a 25% discount on his council tax. Depending on his income/benefits it would be decided what he should pay if anyhting.
When your sister moved in then things would change and it looks like your brother filled in the change of circumstances form. The 25 % discount would go straight away as another adult is now living there. Once this happens entitlement to discount will change too and that will depend on the circumstances of the person who has moved in, hours worked and income .
Not sure about the bit where you state your sister has a 'financial interest' in the property unless they are counting it as capital. It won't be counted as capital for your brother as he is living there so can not understand why it's not the same for your sister, someone else may explain that.
You say your brother is struggling to keep his benefits, has he had a proper benefits assessment?
The link HERE will give a rough idea of his entitlement now he is not living alone.
You may also want to have a look at you LA website as although some rules are the same for all councils some do differ too.

[cara99]

Re: Council tax arrears

Hi cara99

I'm no expert on CT reduction, so I'll give @Crazy council & @enaid a nudge.

There could be a possible carer 'disregard' & if so, maybe a further reduction for single person/severely disabled (if the criteria are met).

My brother is not physically disabled but suffers mental health problems. He is able to live on his own, though not overly successfully in the way most of might manage life. He is unable to face up to things, is agoraphobic and suffers panic attacks for instance.

[cara99]

Re: Council tax arrears

Hi and welcome,
Firstly when your brother lived alone he would have had a 25% discount on his council tax. Depending on his income/benefits it would be decided what he should pay if anyhting.
When your sister moved in then things would change and it looks like your brother filled in the change of circumstances form. The 25 % discount would go straight away as another adult is now living there. Once this happens entitlement to discount will change too and that will depend on the circumstances of the person who has moved in, hours worked and income .
Not sure about the bit where you state your sister has a 'financial interest' in the property unless they are counting it as capital. It won't be counted as capital for your brother as he is living there so can not understand why it's not the same for your sister, someone else may explain that.
You say your brother is struggling to keep his benefits, has he had a proper benefits assessment?
The link HERE will give a rough idea of his entitlement now he is not living alone.
You may also want to have a look at you LA website as although some rules are the same for all councils some do differ too.

The situation, to clarify, is an inherited house shared between 4 siblings, in which 2 siblings live (brother and sister). The term 'financial interest', was a term first mentioned by the council advisor when she learned that sister partly owns the property.

My brother is due an assessment .. a fact that is sending him into a spin and downward spiral. His condition is so difficult to convey and even I am fearful any benefits will be withdrawn. At one time I would have said he would be well enough to return to work, but now, after many years - even I have to concede it is highly unlikely. The problem is that we, as siblings will then be his only safety net. It will fall upon us to support him for the foreseeable future which is very daunting.

At this stage, my main question is .. My brother filled in the council reduction form, truthfully and fully. Can he (and my sister), really be held responsible for an omission in the questionnaire which would have added another option to the status of my sister i.e. owner/occupier which he would have opted for, rather than 'non-dependant,' which she is and which was the only suitable option to tick? Is it worth contesting the arrears on this basis?

Hope I am explaining the situation .. its very hard to tie in all the detail. Again, all replies and advice very gratefully received.

[enaid]

Re: Council tax arrears

Your sister is

1. A resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property

The following people are not classed as non-dependants, even if they live with you:

• anyone who is jointly responsible with you for the council tax - for example, a joint owner or tenant.

This makes your sister liable for the council tax too, so any single occupancy overpaid or council tax benefit overpaid will be recoverable.
Unless you qualify for council tax benefit as a household, then imo you owe the council tax.
I am asking others to have a look and give their opinions. Good luck too with the assessment for your brothers benefits.
@Milo @Debt Camel

[charitynjw]

Re: Council tax arrears

[MENTION=141]enaid[/MENTION]

Good morning.

What is the current situation regarding the definition of a carer?

[enaid]

Re: Council tax arrears

Simple as
A carer is anyone who cares, unpaid, for a friend or family member who due to illness, disability, a mental health problem or an addiction cannot cope without their support.

Carers also have rights and HERE is a guide.

I didn't read the post as the sister was a carer at present, but who knows what the future will bring re her brothers health issues
Any doubts about the situation and an assessment can be done for both parties through their local LA.

[cara99]

Re: Council tax arrears

Your sister is

1. A resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property

The following people are not classed as non-dependants, even if they live with you:

• anyone who is jointly responsible with you for the council tax - for example, a joint owner or tenant.

This makes your sister liable for the council tax too, so any single occupancy overpaid or council tax benefit overpaid will be recoverable.
Unless you qualify for council tax benefit as a household, then imo you owe the council tax.
I am asking others to have a look and give their opinions. Good luck too with the assessment for your brothers benefits.
@Milo @Debt Camel

Thanks, very well explained.

At the council office, we accepted my sister does have a liability and this won't be disputed here on. However, my gripe, if you like, is that the relevant text to highlight this point is not obvious - if it is there at all. Unless I have missed something (and we have asked for anything relevant to this in the form, to be forwarded to us) I cannot see how we could have avoided the situation which we are now in.

[enaid]

Re: Council tax arrears

This is only my opinion and am sorry if you think it is harsh, as I said I have asked others to look at this to see if there is anyhting else that they can add.
I would ask for full details of the council tax from when your sister moved in and for them to explain the 2 uncashed cheques that you found in your brothers paper work. Ask why he was given a rebate as you seem to suggest. If this has already been explained then no need.
Unless your sister can be discounted or she is on benefits herself then I can see no other than all the council tax is due.
Explain that the claimant (your brother) has either misread or misunderstood the form he filled in.
Every council has it's own scheme for council tax deductions I would go on your LA website and go through the form, you have no need to submit it but you should get to the section where your brother went wrong. If it is not fully explained then maybe that will help your case too.
In the end if you do have to pay then I would ask for an affordable payment plan,
Sorry I can't be more positive for you but that's just the way I see it.

[cara99]

Re: Council tax arrears

This is only my opinion and am sorry if you think it is harsh, as I said I have asked others to look at this to see if there is anyhting else that they can add.
I would ask for full details of the council tax from when your sister moved in and for them to explain the 2 uncashed cheques that you found in your brothers paper work. Ask why he was given a rebate as you seem to suggest. If this has already been explained then no need.
Unless your sister can be discounted or she is on benefits herself then I can see no other than all the council tax is due.
Explain that the claimant (your brother) has either misread or misunderstood the form he filled in.
Every council has it's own scheme for council tax deductions I would go on your LA website and go through the form, you have no need to submit it but you should get to the section where your brother went wrong. If it is not fully explained then maybe that will help your case too.
In the end if you do have to pay then I would ask for an affordable payment plan,
Sorry I can't be more positive for you but that's just the way I see it.

No, not at all harsh, and yes, as I mentioned before, we do accept that the amount was underpaid and understand this for future calculations.

I have gone through the form as far as I can, without actually submitting it, and can see nothing to indicate in the section which is filled in incorrectly, anything which would have made him answer the question differently. In addition to all this, our nephew also lived there for a couple of years and paid the same amount. Of course, we did not realise the significance of the fact he wasn't a part owner, so again it all held no alarms for us. The calculation seemed correct as there had been no mention of other occupiers being part owners.

We will see what the council come back with regarding the section brother filled in incorrectly, to see if there was anything he should have spotted.

Thanks for all the replies ... much appreciated.

[enaid]

Re: Council tax arrears

I do hope all ends up ok for you and please let us know if you can the result it will perhaps help others in this situation.
Good luck with this and your brother. Enaid x

[Debt Camel]

Re: Council tax arrears

I too would like to more about these uncashed checks.

What is your sister's financial situation now and what has it been over the years she has been living with her brother?

FWIW, my instinct is that they (brother and sister) are liable for whatever the council tax would have been if the correct information had been given to the council over the years. Without knowing what your sister's fiannces have been, there is no way of saying if she would have been entitled to Council Tax Benefit - later repalced by Council Tax Support.

You can argue that they should be given a reasonable amount of time to pay this because your brother acted in good faith. (Having said this, if your sister was earning, why did it not occur to her that she should be paying council tax?)

[lgfa92]

Re: Council tax arrears

Thanks, very well explained.

At the council office, we accepted my sister does have a liability and this won't be disputed here on. However, my gripe, if you like, is that the relevant text to highlight this point is not obvious - if it is there at all. Unless I have missed something (and we have asked for anything relevant to this in the form, to be forwarded to us) I cannot see how we could have avoided the situation which we are now in.

One question I would ask is as to who actually owns the house ? - If it's your brother then he is solely liable (S6 of the LGFA92) unless your sister is a joint owner of the property (in which case she would be jointly liable only whilst resident).

Craig

[enaid]

Re: Council tax arrears

One question I would ask is as to who owns the house ? - If it's your brother then he is solely liable (S6 of the LGFA92) unless your sister is a joint owner of the property.

Craig

The situation, to clarify, is an inherited house shared between 4 siblings,

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