***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Hi beagles.

Sorry to do this, but my best friend, and woman I class as my sister, is in dire straits.

Firstly a background.
My sister is incredible, I love her very deeply, she has 3 gorgeous, intelligent, wonderful girls what she has raised herself after her pranny of an ex husband did the world a favour and chuffed off!
The girls were emotionally drained and left with abandoment issues, she is also legally disabled (but you call her it at your peril).
As a single mother she claimed help with her rent etc, and has recently been claiming JSA as she was looking for work.

In 2008 roughly she made friends with the man I now call my brother in law, and they slowly became best friends. He was living between his mother and sisters (and whatever sofa's he could fit on) and was trying to put his life together after his marriage break up.

In 2010, he asked my sister could he have mail sent to her house, and collect it once a week, as he was looking for new work and "My mates sofa.. wherever I happen to be that day" didn't look right on the CV.

Later that year they became a couple, but lived apart.

Fast forward to my wedding aniversary (26.10.2012) and they appeared on my door with a card, and said your present isnt wrapped but, just asked D to marry me and she said yes! B-I-L moved in that night, and the next morning D called the Jobcentre and cancelled her claim.

My neice was subjected to some verbal abuse in her road, and was accused of some very petty stuff. D obviously stood by her daughter and the claims were proved to be sour grapes.

3 days later, D gets a letter saying she has been reported for benefit fraud, as B-I-L has been apparently living there continuously for 4 years (news to me and I'm there most days). She was summoned to a meeting and the only evidence of BIL living there is the fact his mail is sent there. No photographs ever surfaced, nothing.

My queiry is, Can she be prosecuted for this? She has literally done nothing wrong and just let her bf have his paycheques sent to her address. He has stayed the occasional night, and has had the odd shower there, but nothing permanant.

All this is a nasty woman trying to save face, what do we do?

[Sapphire]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

My friends son and his other half are going through similar, although he was staying at his mums, they admitted that he stayed overnight every so often, the benefits people said that as long as it was no more than three nights then fine allegedly, don't quote me on that because the girlfriend doesn't exactly tell the whole truth, they have now got my friend to say that her son was indeed living at home and stayed out a couple of nights a week, its still going through the motions so can't help further hun.

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

thanks hun

i didnt think as he literally just had post sent there that there was much they could do, but shes losing sleep over it.

His mum and sister will testify that he has been living at their homes as and when he was in the area ( his job took him all over the country), all this cos my sister and her daughter are best friends and trust each other!

[ploddertom]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

It is up to them to prove it and not for you to prove otherwise. Probably acting on tittle tattle.

[teaboy2]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

Puff best thing to do is sign statement of truth giving witness statements from you, your BIL, and other close firends that are aware of BIL was homeless until recently and was only using Sister address as a mailing address so he could collect his mail specifically in regards to his job searching. Also get statements from those whos sofa hes slept on during the last 4 year period. Give them to the DWP or whoever it is thats investigating. Then go after the person that made the accusation and sue for libel!

P.s. 3 nights a week is the maxium amount of nights a non resident can stay. though i believe their is le-way if its people come to stay during a visit like visting family from miles away!

[Hurricane Puffrose]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

do you mean do a SD?

[teaboy2]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

No just signed witness statements will do. Though Brother in law should do a SD, to add a bit more wait to his side of things!

[Inca]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

Can I just say..........and I got this directly from a Fraud Investigator from Hampshire County Council,,there is NO minimum/maximum night stays,,it is not applicable.The things that DO count are:- Mail addressed to person,credit cards at that address,car insurance,council tax etcetc.If they can prove that the couple are living together as husband and wife then they will investigate.The problem may also arise if the man isn't paying rent/council tax anywhere else.
The 'staying over' thing is seen as such:- if he is homeless (per se) and sofa surfing,why wouldn't he live with his intended wife?
I hate being the merchant of doom and gloom hunny,I was investigated and believe me they knew things I had forgotten about,I wasn't in the wrong at all but it still made me panic.It was Robs ex that made one little phone call that caused 3 months of crap,which was ironic in the end cos they promptly investigated her and she had to pay money back lol.

[bluebottle]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

This sounds like a case of Malicious Report. Whoever is responsible is going to be receiving a rather strong letter and, possibly, a bill for the hours that get wasted as a result. It is for the local authority to prove their case BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT, not balance of probability, as alleged Benefit Fraud falls under Criminal Law and, accordingly, the Criminal Procedures Rules 2011.

I'm afraid evidence based on unsubstantiated assumptions isn't going to get a local authority very far. A judge will will eat them alive if they go before the court without having any hard evidence to substantiate their allegations. I saw a local authority do this before a stipendiary magistrate (now called a District Judge) when in the police and the stipe wiped the floor with them. It was excruciating to watch. The council officer's reaction as he left the courtroom was, "Kinell! Who's upset him?"

[labman]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

I fought for eight years to prove my wife's innocence for benefit fraud. The DWP are swines to deal with as they can act as judge and jury, and will, given half the chance, stop, or reduce benefits.

Was the interview carried out under caution? Did she take notes or have representation there?

If the investigation is still ongoing, it could still be that her benefits could still be affected. Once the investigation is deemed complete, they either have to charge you, or she could agree to a penalty instead (obviously she could be found totally innocent).

Benefit frauds usually fall into 2 categories:

• Dishonestly making a false representation or statement (s.111A Social Security Administration Act 1992)
• Making a representation or statement known to be false(s.112 Social Security Administration Act 1992)

If she is at all concerned, I would do as I did, and invest £10.00 in a SAR. For us this proved they did not have any evidence, let alone enough to do anything serious, yet they had still made deductions from my wife's Carer's Allowance. We got it all back, and the maximum allowed short of taking them to court, but only after a HUGE fight.

Sadly, the advice above is not correct - it should be, but it isn't. They do not have to prove anything - as I said, they act as judge and jury. With my wife, it was 7 years after the alleged offence before they made any deductions as she had not claimed any benefits during that time. Deductions can be made from any benefit.

If this becomes more serious, please let me know as I'm sure I've still got all the notes from this somewhere. Do not agree to letting them make any deductions - plead absolute poverty, do whatever you need, but do not let them take a penny as getting it back is an absolute nightmare.

A brief overview:
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/personal-fi...efit-fraud.htm

[Nikolai]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

Totally agree with BB's advice - it's entirely for them to prove and with the only "evidence" being mail going to the address, they'll have a big job to get anywhere fast. There's been no wrongdoing here from what I've read, so don't give an inch, and certainly don't make any further voluntary statements to anyone in authority. Think back to that meeting - was it in fact an interview under caution? If so was she aware of that and that she was being investigated? Was she afforded any opportunity to be represented at that meeting?

[labman]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

Totally agree with BB's advice - it's entirely for them to prove and with the only "evidence" being mail going to the address, they'll have a big job to get anywhere fast. There's been no wrongdoing here from what I've read, so don't give an inch, and certainly don't make any further voluntary statements to anyone in authority. Think back to that meeting - was it in fact an interview under caution? If so was she aware of that and that she was being investigated? Was she afforded any opportunity to be represented at that meeting?

It is for them to prove, but NOT in the sense most accept. They can, and do, as I said, act as judge and jury. I lived and breathed this for 8 years over a fraudulent allegation my wife was working while claiming benefits. The DWP don't fall under the normal remit of accountability as most understand it, and often, once they realise where they stand, it is too late. They need handling with kid gloves.

[Bill-K]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

FWIW, Labman's is my experience, too - although in my day it was the good old DHSS. Ignorance of the law - whilst being no defence - also seems to be perfectly acceptable grounds for a claim by the DWP. The theory is one thing - and we DO need it, as it is still the Law - but the practice is totally different. The jerks I was having to deal with had no idea of the relevant regulations, and they simply formed their own opinions and then looked for whatever regs seemed to support them. Likewise, the Tribunals and the Judiciary - and THAT is the real world, it seems. Nobody makes an effort to do their job properly - whether they be bailiff, copper or judge - there is no incentive for them. Sure - IF we're lucky - we might get one of the 'Old Guard' on our case. But IMHO, we need to be VERY lucky these days - and relying on luck is not what I would suggest.

Simply knowing the Law - and knowing that we are right - is not enough to secure Justice. It probably never has been - but the erosion of the integrity of the Judiciary has widened that chasm, I feel. It is no longer enough to quote the Law, and expect it to be respected and carried out. The Law is no longer the ass that it has been considered as, and it now moves to suit whomsoever rides it. Alas - it is not us guys down here.

[Inca]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

To be investigated is 100% a pain in the rectal cavity,and,as the guys above have confirmed,to prove ones innocence is ,in itself,a bloody mission.As I said,,I was totally innocent but it didn't stop them shredding my life and my sanity to bits.I was drowning under reams of hospital,drs,counsellors etc letters,and lets be honest,to see me in the flesh is a huge hint that I am incapable of looking after myself.The very sight of all my adaptions should have told them I can't even wash my own hair let alone work . They are bas tards once they get the bit between their teeth hun .

[bluebottle]

Re: ***URGENT**** False accusation re housing benefits.

It is for them to prove, but NOT in the sense most accept. They can, and do, as I said, act as judge and jury. I lived and breathed this for 8 years over a fraudulent allegation my wife was working while claiming benefits. The DWP don't fall under the normal remit of accountability as most understand it, and often, once they realise where they stand, it is too late. They need handling with kid gloves.

DWP officers can be total numpties and, as I have found, bare-faced liars, in some instances. There are ways of putting pressure on them that makes them feel very uncomfortable, especially if it reveals they are in the wrong and refuse to accept this. You can also refer a case to the Parliamentary Ombudsman as maladministration with the assistance of your MP. As far as DWP stands as regards accountability, their current behaviour is being driven by the Conservative element of the Coalition Government, BUT, at the end of the day, THEY have to prove THEIR side of any allegations they make. If you have the evidence to prove your side, it is up to DWP to prove otherwise. DWP does not have or get special dispensation or privileges in courts of law. If they get caught misleading or lying to a court, the DWP officer responsible will get crucified by the judge. Not only that, they can also face proceedings for Misconduct in Public Office and termination of their appointment as a Crown Servant.