lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

[neshah]

Hi All

I have been reviewing some of the information on this and other sites and have followed various guides to get to the point that I am now in helping a friend and his wife with several misselling complaints and claims.

To cut a long story short there are several claims at different stages and rather than go through card services to get information as some guides recommend I have gone to the DSAR teams themselves after trying card services who were less than helpful. Thankfully, in this instance, the DSAR team have been more helpful although there are still clarifications of data needed

The Lloyds DSAR team had advised by letter that for credit card PPI policy details for me to contact Lloyds TSB Insurance Ltd Tredegar Park, Newport, Gwent, NP10 8SB however after trying to do that they are not responsible at all for credit card ppi policies and its actually card services. The DSAR contact was also shocked at this when I informed her that Lloyds TSB insurance could not help and I asked how come DSAR team did not know this and was informed that they have advised everybody to date that it is Lloyds TSB Insurance Ltd who are responsible however no-one else has questioned this further! Could this be true or are they trying to mislead people?

There are also various inconsistencies with the actual data that they have provided and apparently some data is not available which I have queried and am waiting for a response.

As well as this I have used the excellent advice found here and used Bill's excellent spreadsheet to compile all the charges and the amount is coming to approx £30k - is it possible for someone to check that I have it correct, I have had to 'hardtype' the interest amounts as they are a lot higher on the statements than the APR would equal, possibly due to cash withdrawals and I have also added in late payment and other fees which possibly should not be included?

Lastly when the policy was started it appears on the statements as "Cardholder protection plan" and on the application form it was labelled "asset payment protection"(as mentioned above I am waiting to see the actual Ts and Cs) and a few years after the start the name changes on the statement to "Payment Protection Cover".

I have searched the term "Cardholder protection plan" and it appears to be a form of PPI however Lloyds in particular appear to initially say that it isn't and refuse claims - does anyone have any experience of this?

Please do let me know if someone can review the spreadsheet

many thanks!

[Bill-K]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Hi Neshah, and welcome to you. I suspect that they are deliberately misleading people, but it IS possible that they may just be stupid. I agree that a DSAR will usually get you much more info than any other method, but data is often missing and you may have to be persistent with them to get the rest of the data. They usually only supply your data from 6 years ago (12 years for mortgages, I believe) - but again, you can sometimes get them to go further back than this. Inconsistencies with the data would be worth checking - often it is just errors in interpretation of it - but any real anomalies should be queried, as this suggests tampering with records.

The Cardholder Protection Plan (CPP) is usually an annual fixed premium for insurance to cover all of your cards for loss or theft, and ALL CPP has been deemed by the FOS as totally unnecessary and therefore mis-sold - so you should be able to reclaim this. The PPI of course is a monthly premium based on the balance owing (usually 0.69%). I'm glad that you found the spready useful - I'll take a look and get back to you ASAP.

[neshah]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Many thanks for the swift reply Bill. Will see how they respond to my reply to their initial batch of information. To be fair they have been quite good so far in that they have provided statements from today back to 2000 and also an internal database print which shows insurance applied onto the account however other aspects of the database information are inconsistent and/or missing.

Will wait for you to take a look and let you know if I get any more information from the DSAR team in the interim.

Thanks

Neshah

[Bill-K]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

You seem to have done very well to get statements back to 2000, Neshah. Well done with the figures, too - the only error I found was the date in row 102. Indeed, the PPI seems to have been called CPP originally, and this seems to have been capped at £75 initially - rising over time until it then became PPI, when the capping was removed.

Now, I never recommend that we send any figures with our claim initially, and wait for them to work out their own settlement offer. We can then claim PPI and Penalty charges, and they may simply refund ALL Penalties. In that case, their offer should be at least the amount shown in your spready (with the date error corrected). But they may not refund the Late Payment charges, as these would not have been caused by the PPI. The Returned Payment and Overlimit charges can be reclaimed if they would not have been charged had the PPI not been sold - this is where the 'Notional' account balance is used as reference.

You CAN claim the earlier Penalty charges where they were more than £12, as these are generally considered to have been unlawfully made. I have attached a revised spready (#02) with the later £12 Late Payment Fees removed, but the two earlier £18 ones left in.

"Looking good, Houston !"

[neshah]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Many thanks Bill, your observations and analysis is incredibly useful.

So that I am sure I understand the penalty fees which can and cannot be reclaimed correctly please confirm the following is correct:

Any penalty fees over £12 can be claimed as they are 'unlawful'
£12 penalties which, if the notional balance would have meant that they would not have been charged can be claimed eg. overlimit fees
£12 penalties which, if the notional balance may have meant that they would not have been charged can be claimed eg. Returned Payment Fee may not have been charged if notional balance was used as direct debit for minimum payment amount would have been lower

Many thanks for all your help so far!

[Bill-K]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

As I said, it is usually best to claim PPI and Penalty charges, without specifying any amounts, or which charges - then see what their response is and take it from there. But I agree with the first two points you needed clarifying. The third one depends on exactly what the Returned Payment Fee is. I have assumed that it is a charge for having to refuse a payment from the account to a merchant, because this would take the balance overlimit - in which case it may be reclaimable (subject to 'Notional Balance.') But if it is a charge for missing a monthly repayment INTO the account, then I don't think it would be reclaimable.

[neshah]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

AHH ok, I will have to review and assess from the statements. Many thanks for your help and input so far. I am expecting to hear back on the various clarifications I requested from DSAR next week so will update a soon as I can on those fronts.

Bill, are you aware of any cases where the PPI claimant is actually being taken to court for the outstanding credit card debt and bearing in mind notional balances this would never have been the case. And the fact that they are being taken to court and multiple debt collector notifications and calls etc cause a great amount of distress. What can happen in these situations if the PPI claim is upheld as missold?

[Bill-K]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Now you've put me on the spot, Neshah ! I don't usually get involved in the circumstances surrounding PPI claims, and just try and do the geeky maths stuff - so I can't directly recall any PPI claims where the claimant was actually defending a claim against them in court - but I have a feeling there have been some. Usually, if it gets to that stage, then the PPI claimant would have to convince the court that they have a viable claim against the lender, and would probably have to file a counter-claim to this effect, as part of their defence. I think this would buy them some time to gather evidence.

I AM aware of cases where the PPI claimant is being threatened with court action by the lender or a Debt Collection Agency (DCA), and we have been able to show that the PPI would significantly reduce the amount pursued by the lender/DCA, and thus avoid court proceedings. Distress caused by DCA's - and even bailiffs - can be difficult to quantify and pursue. BUT - the FOS do award compensation in this respect - usually a maximum of £1K last time I looked. Anything further to this is going to be difficult to pursue - but NOT impossible.

But we have seen difficulties where a Default Notice (DN) has been issued, and a Default Marker put on a credit file - which was subsequently found to have been incorrect due to the PPI claim. These Default Markers seem to be difficult to remove once registered, and it may be worth considering paying the amounts demanded in order to avoid the DN - and then going for the PPI afterwards, along with a claim for distress compensation - and even possibly 'consequential losses' in some cases.

[neshah]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Blimey Bill, you are dedicated to the cause - I was fast asleep when you replied!

Thanks, yes I helped my auntie file a counterclaim although that was set at the amount claimed by the CC company against my auntie (outstanding balance or ~half of the calculated amount). The case is on hold whilst we investigate and file an actual PPI claim however I am trying to dot all the is and cross all the ts prior to filing it so am waiting for the Ts and Cs to come in.

So I should also factor in distress etc to the counterclaim. Can I claim for the time it has taken me to help as she can barely speak English an it has taken many hours of research and investigation to get this far let alone complete the claim and court process.

Alternatively as its now in court can we hire a solicitor who is able to get his fees repaid by the other side if we are succesfull if we finalise the research and give it all over to the solicitor?

Many thanks!

[Bill-K]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

LOL - no, I'm just a sad old insomniac geek who doesn't get out much !!!

I'm glad you've got the case put on hold, and I agree that you need to get the PPI claim as watertight as possible - so gather as much evidence as you can. Let's hope that you can settle the PPI claim without putting that through the court, and getting it watertight will help with the chances of that, as it should leeave them with no room to manoevre.

Well, the FOS award compensation for distress etc., where the lender has clearly been unreasonable or difficult - so it seems to me to be reasonable to claim this in court, if that is the case. I'm no expert at court procedure etc., but I do believe that the claimant can claim for their time and effort - so I would expect it to be reasonable for you to add this to the claim. I believe you can speak for your Auntie, but will need the court's permission prior to this - and she will still need to attend the hearing. I think, though, that if you feel confident about the claim, it might be a good idea to engage a solicitor. If you can present a clear case to him, then it shouldn't be too much of a costs risk.

However, if the PPI claim can be settled outside the court, then the initial claim would have to be modified or re-started anew, so it might be better to wait until you have an outcome from the PPI claim before you hire a solicitor. Just my lay opinion, you must understand.

[neshah]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Many thanks again Bill, your opinion is very well received as a layperson and as an experienced insomniac maths geek ! I will keep you posted as to my progress.

[Have a couple of brandies at about 9pm to cure the insomnia...]

[neshah]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Well Bill and others. Happy New Year - I hope you had the brandies!

A lot has happened and not happened since I last posted and Lloyds turned down the case based on point of sale advisor notes which according to DSAR did not exist.

So now the case is proceeding at court with lloyds claim of arrears and our counterclaim of the PPI charges and recompense to date.

It has been kept in the small claims track even though the amounts are much larger by mutual agreement between us and lloyds.

The value of our counterclaim had initially matched Lloyds claim for arrears and now we actually want to increase that based on actual calculated claim value and the judge has asked for formal pleadings to that effect and defense of the original claim for arrears.

As an aside we did make an initial section 78 request which Lloyds reverted to with a reconstituted agreement and statement of account.

We are taking legal advice however any insight/observations you experts can provide would be well received.

Thanks

[Bill-K]

Re: lloyds credit card PPI interesting DSAR feedback & help needed

Hi Neshah, and a Happy New Year to you !!! If you are now taking legal advice, then I must bow to the professionals, and refrain from contradicting their professional opinion. It seems to me that we are entering an era where professional advice is being looked upon with renewed respect, and as a voluntary - and unqualified - advisor, I must now back out of the limelight, and not interfere with due process any further. We do have some professionals here, however - and I feel sure that you will receive all the help and advice that LB can give.

I sincerely offer you my very best wishes with your claim.