Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

[kellywilko]

Hi all, I last posted back in Oct 2012 when Bill K and Di 30 kindly gave me some advise re the first rejection letter i rcvd from MBNA. They came back with a second rejection letter at the end of Dec, but i have only now been able to sit down and go through everything -

Update as follows , With help from Bill K , I sent a letter back in Oct to MBNA, quoting them to refer to the Disp App-3.2.1. 2 and 3 and the entire section Disp APP 3.3. I also asked to see a copy of my original application form, as this had previously not been sent to me . Their response is as follows -

Dear xxxx

Thank you for your letter dated 23/10/2012 concerning payment protection insurance complaint on the above acc and referring to our final response letter under ref xxxx.

We are sorry you do not feel that we have properly investigated your complaint. Please rest assured that we have carefully followed the complaints - handling rules set out in PS 10/12. Accordingly we have ;
1.assessed whether there was a breach or failing in the sale of the policy.
2.determined whether you would have bought the policy in the absence of any breach or failing, bearing in mind that if our sales practice contained and significant flaws we must presume that you would not have bought the policy and,
3. taken into account any recurring of systemic problems in our sales practices.

The sale of PPI to you was made at a distance on the basis of information provided to you in writing.The sale was also made on a 'non advised' basis, which means we are not required to individually assess your needs before you took out your policy. Rather we had to provide you with sufficient information for you to make and informed decision about whether or not you wished to purchase the policy.It is only after going throuhg each of steps 1 - 3 above, that we have come to the conclusion that the policy proviced you with comver which would have been beneficial to you and that there is no reason to conclude that you would not have purchased the policy.

A copy of your application form was not available at the time we sent our last response, but we have managed to retrieve it from our archives and enclose it for your records.

We regret to inform you that our original decision remains unchanged. This is our final response to your complaint etc etc.

I also requested a SARS on the advise of Di 30 and this was also seperately sent to me.

I have looked back at the items sent, esp the application form. It is dated 25/1/97 (so quite some time ago) . On the top it says 'TRADE UP TO MBNA GOLD', but i cannot remember if i had a mbna card before this or if it was a totally new application? It appears from looking at the photocopy sent, that the protection insurance box has been ticked YES. The tick looks a little lighter than the other ticks on form, so i donot know or remember if it was ticked by me. The form itself, looks like one of those forms that has the postage already paid on the back, and you fold and lick to seal the form before postage (no envelope is needed). I am sure i would not have taken the ppi without being pushed to do so and to tell you the truth, didnot understand anything about it. I think i would have ticked it as i believed the application would not have advanced unless i bought this protection . However can't remember facts as it was so long ago. The tiny section for PPI reads as follows-

PAYMENT PROTECTION INSURANCE
I would like to protect my payments and confirm that i meet the eligibility criteria sumarised on the enclosed leafet.
YES (TICKED) NO


I can't remember getting any info re PPI , nor were any forms or info re the ppi sent together with my SARS. It seems i stupidly paid out nearly £2800 in payments from 15/5/97 - 16/9/2005. Looking at my sars, I can see that PPI was stopped on 19/9/2005. it says PPC CANCELLED BY COMPANY OLD STAT = 1. I know that i started getting into trouble with my payments around this time as bank had stopped funding for my company and i had to shut it down around this time. I have been on a repayment plan to MBNA from around 2006 and i still owe £5000 of the £11,000 on c/c. I'm now feeling stupid as PPI seems to have been stopped just when i needed to use it. I was also informed in OCT 2012 that MBNA had de.cided to sell by debt even thought i had been on a payment plan for over 6 years. This seems to have come about after i first approached them re mis sold ppi. I now owe the money to a company called Moorgate.

Sorry to waffle on and hope this post make sense. I really need to know if anyone has any advise on whether it is worth my while contacting the FOS? I am worried that they may not take the case as the ppi box was signed (even though i am not sure if it was me). I have read on other sites and posts that even if a box is signed, it is not deemed by the FSA as sufficient evidence to show that mis selling did not take place. It is up to the company to produce clear evidence to demonstrate that the client was not misled and that all terms relating to ppi were explained to me clearly. Which i believe is not the case.

If anyone has advise, or has reached a simular stage with MBNA or simular. I would really appreicate any help with wording on letter to FOS, or how to proceed from here.

Thank you to everyone who helps on this site , really wouldn't have a clue how to proceed without you all.

[di30]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Hi there

So sorry for the 2nd rejection.

Does the tick look manually ticked or computer generated?

I note they said about the decision is now final, did they mention about complaining to the Financial ombudsman Service (FOS)?

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Hi di 30, No the tick is manually ticked and they did say to take to the FOS within 6 months.

[di30]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Hiya

Ok, with it being final, and they also mentioned the FOS, you have 6 months as from the date of the letter you received.

With it also being the 2nd rejection letter, maybe now it would be best to forward your complaint to the FOS, it's up to you of course, as they may not respond at all now, or if they do, they may just say, they have already provided you with a final decision and will not be revisting the complaint.

However, if you feel they missed/overlooked on your complaint, and they did not give you clear reasons on why they rejected your complaint, you could try one more time by just giving them 14 days, if they do not come back to you or change the decision in your favour by then, then complain to the FOS.

If you decide to write to them one last time, also send the Chief executive officer (CEO) a copy of the letter and make complaints aware of this.

Hope this info helps you in some way ;-)

[di30]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

To complain to the FOS, they also have a complaint form where you directly send this to them, (not to get confused with the other form they have (when complaining to business/bank).
Keep a copy as well x

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Hi all, I did complain to the FOS using the usual forms required and sent off the copies of letter sent and rcvd from MBNA. This was just after my last post at the end of Jan. I today rcvd a letter from the FOS to confirm that MBNA wish to make an offer to settle my complaint. I'm so happy. I just wanted to post as without the help of all you guys on here, I won't have had a clue what to do. I can't thank you enough, esp di 30 and Bill k. I just want to say to anyone else who has had rejection letters, NOT TO GIVE UP. I had ticked the box requesting ppi when I applied for the credit card back in 1997 and really thought because of this that I didn't have a chance in getting anything back. MBNA said as much in their rejection letters. However with this forums help, I applied and won. Not sure yet what they are going to offer i know i paid around £2800 in ppi payments over a 9 nine period, but will let you know once i receive offer from MBNA. ONCE AGAIN, DO NOT GIVE UP, EVEN WHEN YOU GET REJECTION LETTERS, THEY MAKE YOU FEEL AS IF YOU ARE STUPID EVEN TRYING TO RECLAIM. THIS IS JUST TACTICS TO PUT YOU OFF. KEEP ON AND SEND TO FOS, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE AND EVERYTHING TO GAIN. I have also applied for M&S card, (pls see post for info) will keep you all updated on this one also. Thanks again to all you .x

[charitynjw]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Nice one, kellywilko.

Pays to have a PPI Star & a gorilla minder on your team, lol!

[di30]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Well done and Congratulations!!!!!

Fab news and your most welcome, we love success!!!
And the best of luck on the M&S complaint too, any probs, you know where to find us lol!!!

Well done! x

[Bill-K]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Well done and congrats to you, KellyWilko !!! Your Churchillian perseverence finally paid off - and thank you for your kind and encouraging comments.

Next job we have is to try and work out how much we would expect a fair offer of redress to be, so that we can decide whether to accept or reject their offer. This will depend on what records you have. If you have all your statements, then we should be able to make an accurate calculation. If not, then we may have to make our best guess on what we do know.

As far as I understand so far, this is a MBNA credit card taken out in 1997 and closed (or settled) in 2006. You say you paid approx. £2800 in PPI during that period, and over a 108-month period, this works out at an average of approx. £26 in PPI per month. Can you say how you have arrived at the £2800 figure ?

[enaid]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Well done pleased for you and thanks for the update x

[Bill-K]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Here's a little something for starters. Using the info I have so far, I've knocked up a spreadsheet which spreads out the £2800 PPI payments over 9 years, building them up slowly. I have set the APR rate at 27.9% as a rough guess. I have estimated the account balances from the PPI payments using the standard PPI ratio of 0.69%. Using this estimate, the PPI attracted approx. £4500 in apportioned account interest, making the total claim approx. £7300.

Additionally, if you were charged penalties, you may want to add these to the claim, although some claimants prefer to keep these separate. I prefer to combine them, as the PPI was quite often the sole cause of the penalties - particularly with Overlimit Fees. As an example, ten £20 Overlimit Fees charged in 2000 could add a further £1000 to the claim.

Anyways - here's my workings attached...

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Hi all, sorry for delay in getting back, have been out all day. Bill-k you are amazing, wish I had you around to sort out all my problems. In response to your earlier posting update on situation is as follows - As already mentioned, I took the card out in 1997 I mainly used it for my business travelling and therefore built up debt quite quickly. In the beginning i started paying out approx. £25-30 per month in ppi, this then increased to between £37-40 per month and then on some months it was as high as £55-£60 per month. From 1997 until approx 2003 the business was going well and I paid off large sums of money and spent large sums on the account. The business really started getting into problems around late 2004/2005. In Sept 2005 I finally stopped the ppi payments as these were running at £61.55 for the previous few months. I had to wind the company up around this time due to problems with production in the Far East. My interest payments alone were running at around the £200 level so would have had around £10,000 - £10,500 on the credit card .Between Oct 05 and March 06 I was charged £3271.26 in interest payments alone. I continued to try to pay these but by March 2007 it became impossible to continue in this way. I contacted Mbna and agreed a repayment without interest. I was paying £89.00 per month from April 2007 until Sept 2012 and the credit card was down to around £5000. At this stage I then contacted them re the ppi reclaim. The following month, they sent me a letter informing me that they had sold the debt to Moorgate loan services I have been paying them the same amount since. You mentioned that I could maybe claim overlimit fees , looking at the notes, I was charged just under £200 in over the limit fees and they did refund £50 when I complained at the time. Therefore total overlimit fee is £149. I sent all the original statements to FOS as there were 31 pages, they have just confirmed that they can email these back to me. I think these contain all the ppi payments, interest and charges made monthly, but did not have the balance as far as I can remember. From the notes I made before sending them, its seems I paid £2777.18 in ppi payments June 1997- Sept 2005. From June 1997 - March 2006 I paid £9301.84 in interest and £752.00 in late free and over limit fees. Its really scary when you see how much was paid out like this. I should have the copy statements sent to my email by tomorrow morning. Once again thanks for all your help and not sure if this makes it any clearer.

[Bill-K]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

No hurry, Kel - we all pop in here as and when life out there allows. You're very kind, but as Mrs-K will attest - and the rest of the crew here will agree - I usually create more problems than I solve !!! I'm sorry to hear the story of your business, but please don't feel foolish. We tend to follow our instincts when building a business, and you trusted your bank for support during the hard times, as well as the easy times. I guess I'm here for the same reason as you and so many others - we were betrayed, and our trust was misplaced. Likewise with Di, whose sheer persistence and support has got you to this stage. Me - I just do the figures, mainly - so this is perhaps where I take over, but I do not want to steal Di's limelight. If it wasn't for her efforts, I'd be sitting here twiddling my thumbs, bless her !!!

Now - thanks for the potted history. As the account is still running, then this makes a big difference to the figures - mostly because you will have been charged further account interest on the PPI you paid earlier. Along with £149 Overlimit Fees (which I've added as a single amount for now) - my estimated claim quantum is now up to approx. £18.5K. This also includes 8% Statutory Rate interest on the most recent months, as the 'Notional Balance' on the account went into credit.

The 'Notional Balance' is the theoretical balance on the account which WOULD have been the case if the PPI had not been sold. Therefore, if this becomes a CREDIT balance for any month, then it attracts 8% interest - because the account balance would normally just have been left at zero. Also - ANY penalty charges made during such months should be reclaimable, as the account would have been in 'stasis' at this point.

More...ANY penalty charges over £12 should be reclaimable as unfairly excessive - although this is technically not due to PPI - which is why it is often recommended to reclaim these separately. However, if these are successfully reclaimed at this point (and this is quite possible) - then this may well bring the claim quantum up to £20K or more. I've attached an updated estimate spreadsheet.

When you get your statement figures, then you can overwrite the estimated figures, and get an accurate figure.

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

Hi Bill-k, di30 and all the team. Just got back from school run and nearly fell off my seat when I saw your posting. WOW I can't believe its going to be anywhere near that figure. Thank you for your kind words and support. In hind site was probably the best that I let the company go. Friends in the same field have had a terrible time in the last few years and would probably have run in the more trouble if I had kept going. Instead had a another baby and was really able to enjoy motherhood third time around, instead of being away for half the year and stressing about everything. I have spent the last seven years paying off all the debts outstanding with company and am nearly there. I have just checked and FOS have kindly sent me the statements back. I am now going to attempt to amend the figures you kindly sent me. Could I just check a couple of things with you if possible. Upon checking the statements I have noticed that on some of the months (starts July 2000) , I seem to have been charged two types of interest. The retail interest normally charged and the promotional interest? i.e. July is retail interest £64.42 and promotional interest £10.12, following month RI £44.28 and PI £35.72. This goes on until 2004. However some months, just have promotional interest and a couple during this period just have retail interest. Could you shine any light on this and explain the difference ? Also do I have to put the figures in for the interest charged each month ? Re the late payment charges, do have quite a few of these and they range from £12 for the first two, then £15, £18, £20 and as high as £25. Should I include these figures of just leave them out? I'm sorry to keep coming back to you and don't want to take up all your time, as I'm sure others need your help to. Lastly do I just type the figures over the ones you already have there? Once I finally get offer and monies donation on the way as would not have been possible without the help of amazing people on this site.

[Bill-K]

Re: Need help with FOS letter after 2nd rejection letter from MBNA

It's good that you can be philosophical about the past years, Kel, and perhaps you made the right decision instead of suffering further. The promotional interest is usually (always ?) a lower rate, and is generally applied to such things as balance transfers, etc. Everything else is usually at the purchase interest rate (including PPI) - so ignore the promo rate here.

You could type the figures over the estimated figures in the spreadsheet I posted, but do not delete or add lines, except at the bottom, as this upsets the formatting. It would be better to start with a fresh 400-line spreadsheet from here:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...568#post306568

At the top of the spreadsheet, enter the APR at the account opening date. To get the most accuracy, you will need to go through each statement in date order, and enter for each month:
D. The statement date;
E. Leave blank for now;
F. The PPI charged;
G. Any other charges - detail these in column E;
H. The TOTAL interest charged that month (include both the purchase AND the promo rates);
I. The account balance;
J. The APR rate at that time (if known);
K. The Monthly interest rate (if shown on the statement) - IF the APR is not known.
P. Use this column for your own notes, as this will not be printed.

Any months where you do not have a statement, enter the date and leave the rest of the line blank. Write "No Stmt" in column P, and we'll deal with this later.

Any other points to note, enter details in column P.

Once this is done, post it here as an attachment - or if you prefer privacy, PM me. We can work on anything that needs doing after that.

One point - ideally, we should separate out the promotional balance each month, and the promotional rate interest. But this would be complicated and extremely tedious. Unless a large portion of the balance was promotional, the method we're using here will show a slightly lower claim amount.

If you have a complete record of the historical interest rates throughout the claim period, it is possible to calculate the interest on the PPI & Charges more accurately, by applying the purchase interest rate directly to the amount of PPI and charges each month. I'll see if I can sort a spready out for doing this, and post it later, if you can use this method.