Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

[kellywilko]

Hi all, not sure if you can help me. I phoned M&S money at the end of August , as i believed i had been missold ppi insurance. They confirmed that i had ppi from 1991 and i cancelled this in 2006. They asked me over the phone, why i believed this was mis-sold.I said i was self-employed and that i remember being pushed take ppi to get c/c. I also didnot fully understand what it was. I didnot hear back from M&S until today.

I rcvd the following back. - I understand from your questionnaire that you feel this insurance was mis-sold to you and would like a full refund of all premiums paid plus 8% statutory interest. - I didnot fill in a questionnaire as nothing was send to me. My only contact was by phone to see if I had made ppi payments and gave reason as to why i felt i was mis-sold. This was a 3-4 minute telecon, whereby i was told to expect a reply within 8 weeks.

The letter continues as follows -

The allegations set out in your questionnaire are as follows ; (i never filled out a questionnaire )
You believed you were mis-sold th insurance as you were self-employed.
You were made to take out the ppi with the credit card.
You cannot remember how the cost,benefits and terms of insurance were explained to you.
You cannot remember what information, if any, was give to you before you took out the insurance.

I have now finished my investigation into your complain and have confirmed my findings below-
.The application was completed in an M&S store, no financial representatives were present so no advice about the merits of this poicy could have been given to you by out staff.
.Information about the insurance was stated on the application form and the related literature.
.On the application form, in order to take thepolicy you were required to ticka box, you did this, indicating that you wanted to take the policy.
.The cost of the insurace was oulined on the application form, "premium rate 64p per £100 of the outstanding balance".
.By signing the overallapplication form, you confirmed you were happy with the content, including the ppi terms and conditions.
.Policy documents were issued to you detailing the terms and conditions,costs,benefits and exclusions. These should have been reviewed to ensure the cover was suitable.
.PPi w offeed to self-employed customers to cover their monthly repaymens should the unexpected happen. It provides cover for accidens , sickness, bankruptcy and liquidation.
.Non of out literature has suggested that a customers application for credit would be affected by taking PPI.
.The policy was charged on a monthly basis for over 14 years and detailed on your monthly statement.
.During September 2003 we wrote to you to inform you that we were transferring your chargecard account to a credit card account, unless you informed us otherwise.

Due to the reasons stated above, i reject your complaint that this poliy was mis-sold to you and will not be offering ou a refund. I have enclosed a copy ofthe applicaton for your refrence.

They then go on to advise me to contact the FOS if not satisfied with their response. They enclosed a FOS leaflet.

The application form is a very dark black photocopy. They have highlighted the box with PPI , however i can read at the bottom - We strongly recommend you take this cover by ticking post.

Sorry for such long post. Its the first time i have done anything like this. Really need some help and advise as to whether i should continue to try to reclaim ppi from M&S. If someone could give me some help with the letter i should send back to M&S or FOS. As already mentioned , I didnot get or fill in any questionnaire. I only had one telephone conversation at the end of August to see if I was able to make a reclaim on the ppi paid. Many thanks in advance.

[Bill-K]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Hi Kelly, and welcome to you. It is always better to keep everything in writing, and only use the telephone if it is vitally important, and if you will not need a record of the conversation. This looks like the usual knee-jerk response we are now getting from the lenders. Can you see if the application form is actually a copy of YOUR application ? It is possible that they have "erroneously" copied the wrong one, and "erroneously" set the scanner controls to dark.

Here's my humble suggestion for a reply to them:-
" Thank you for your letter of XX/XX/XX, but you appear to have replied to a totally different complaint to mine. Without even attempting to enter into any meaningful dialogue, you have decided that this is your final response.

What you have sent me clearly cannot even be considered an initial response to my complaint – let alone a final one. Your "investigation" appears to have overlooked the clear evidence that pressure was used to sell the PPI via the line "We strongly recommend you take this cover by ticking..." which is clearly visible below the PPI box you have produced as evidence. You say you found no evidence of mis-selling, but that is not surprising, as you have clearly not looked for any - because you obviously have no incentive to do so. Your "investigation" is patently biased and you clearly appear to have decided that the PPI was not mis-sold simply because a consent box on a barely-legible copy of an application form appears to have been ticked.

I have thus been forced to take further advice on this, which I had hoped would not prove necessary. Please be aware that I shall be seeking compensation additional to the redress you will be required to make, due to your treatment of my complaint. I would suggest that you now try and limit your increasing liability in this respect by responding properly. Your response falls far short of what is expected by the FSA, and I am sure you will agree that your conduct thus far will not be looked upon favourably by the FSA, the FOS, or the Courts, if you force me to take my complaint to them.

May I respectfully ask that you now refer to Disp App 3.2.1, 2 & 3 of the FSA Handbook, and to the entire section Disp App 3.3, then seriously consider dealing with this complaint properly. If you are then neither able nor willing to deal with this complaint properly - in compliance with the FSA – I must insist that you pass it to someone who is.

I genuinely hope that your response thus far has been made in error, and I am prepared to accept that, if you can now demonstrate that this is not your normal method of dealing with PPI complaints.

I thus look forward to your co-operation by sending me a proper response, in compliance with the FSA policies. "

You may want to quote some of these in the letter - or leave them for now. The FSA Handbook on PPI Redress contained within PS 10/12 states:

DISP APP 3.2.1 The firm should consider, in the light of all the information provided by the complainant and otherwise already held by or available to the firm, whether there was a breach or failing by the firm.

DISP APP 3.2.2 The firm should seek to establish the true substance of the complaint, rather than taking a narrow interpretation of the issues raised, and should not focus solely on the specific expression of the complaint. This is likely to require an approach to complaint handling that seeks to clarify the nature of the complaint.

DISP APP 3.2.3 A firm may need to contact a complainant directly to understand fully the issues raised, even where the firm received the complaint from a third party acting on the complainant's behalf. The firm should not use this contact to delay the assessment of the complaint.

DISP APP 3.2.2 The firm should seek to establish the true substance of the complaint, rather than taking a narrow interpretation of the issues raised, and should not focus solely on the specific expression of the complaint. This is likely to require an approach to complaint handling that seeks to clarify the nature of the complaint.

DISP APP 3.3.1 Where a complaint is made, the firm should assess the complaint fairly, giving appropriate weight and balanced consideration to all available evidence, including what the complainant says and other information about the sale that the firm identifies. The firm is not expected automatically to assume that there has been a breach or failing.

DISP APP 3.3.2 The firm should not rely solely on the detail within the wording of a policy's terms and conditions to reject what a complainant recalls was said during the sale.

DISP APP 3.3.3 The firm should recognise that oral evidence may be sufficient evidence and not dismiss evidence from the complainant solely because it is not supported by documentary proof. The firm should take account of a complainant's limited ability fully to articulate his complaint or to explain his actions or decisions made at the time of the sale.

DISP APP 3.3.4 Where the complainant's account of events conflicts with the firm's own records or leaves doubt, the firm should assess the reliability of the complainant's account fairly and in good faith. The firm should make all reasonable efforts (including by contact with the complainant where necessary) to clarify ambiguous issues or conflicts of evidence before making any finding against the complainant.

DISP APP 3.3.5 The firm should not reject a complainant's account of events solely on the basis that the complainant signed documentation relevant to the purchase of the policy.

DISP APP 3.3.9 In determining a particular complaint, the firm should (unless there are reasons not to because of the quality and plausibility of the respective evidence) give more weight to any specific evidence of what happened during the sale (including any relevant documentation and oral testimony) than to general evidence of selling practices at the time (such as training, instructions or sales scripts or relevant audit or compliance reports on those practices).

[brummie]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Hi Kellywilko--

Brill advice from Bill-k....
I have had dealings with M+S, and the letter you have quoted sounds familiar. I will go into my archives and dig out my stuff.

[di30]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Another fab letter here Billk.

Good luck with this Kelly, try not to worry, and keep at them.

We look forward to hearing from you to hear the outcome of the follow up letter. x

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Many thank Bill-K , Brummie and Di 30. Will send letter this week and post once i get reply.

[di30]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Fingers crossed hun x

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Just to let you know letter posted to M&S today. Will let you all know what happens. In the meantime, i also got a rejection letter from MBNA today. Reads as follows -

You may recall that we recently wrote to you to request further informaion in relation to you PPI complaint. To date this information has not been received and as such, i have based my
findings on the information we currently hold. -( I DID SEND BACK A PPI CONSUMER QUESTIONNAIRE A FEW WEEKS AGO. I DIDNOT HAVE VERY MUCH INFO ON THERE AS COULD NOT REMEMBER MUCH)

Our records show that PPI was applied to your account at your request on 26th March 1997.

At the time the payment protection insurance was added to your account, you were eligible for the cover(you stated on your application form that you were a UK resident, in permanent employment and aged between 18 and 70). When you opted for the PPI cover, we did not offer advice about the policy, we provided you with the information only. In other words, yours was a non-advised sale. Having reviewed the information you have provided, our processes and the disclosures which we made to you at the time, we are satisfied that you had sufficient information to make your own evaluation of and decision about the product on offer. On this basis, i regret to advise that i am unable to uphold your complaint or issue a refund of the premiums you paid.

I appreciate that this is likely to come as a disappointment to you. I know this is not the outcome you were hoping for. Nevertheless, i am hoping that my explanation has been helpful in setting out clearly why i have taken this view.

This is our final response to your complaint. If you remain dissatisfied you now the right to refer your complaint to the Financial ombudsmand which you must to within 6 monts of this letter.

Really sorry to trouble you all again, but wonder if you think i should send a reply simular to the one Bill- K supplied for the M&S letter. MBNA didnot send me a copy of my application form or any other info , apart from the letter worded above. So i have no way of knowing if what they say is ture. I really can't remember how i applied for this card. It would have been a form or over the phone.

I have read the other threads about Mbna and di-30's info on requesting a SAR, should i do this here?. Any info you can give, will once again be greatly appreciated

[stevesouth33]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

I am in an identical situation with m and s! I went back to them to ask them to review their decision based on the strongly recommend line. They came back stating that the sale was not advised so therefore they were not providing advice so again failed to uphold complaint! I think they are either playing the long game on these ones or there might be some sort of regulatory point I have missed as PPI was not regulated until 2005, but I think that is probably unlikely, so more about the long game. And mine has been with the FOS for over a year now still waiting for adjudication. Remember as we'll this is HSBC who are the worst for dodging and delaying, but hopefully the outcome will be good for us! I am told I should get some sort of view from the FOS in the next couple of weeks so will let you know the outcome.

[Bill-K]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

As Steve's post suggests, it certainly seems as though this is the general trend. It's easy to say they can find no evidence to support OUR claims - of course they can't. So, I would suggest you tailor my letter to suit this claim, and send it to MBNA, Kelly. However, any objections to it, or suggestions otherwise, etc., would be welcome.

[kellywilko]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Hi all , finally today got a reply from the FOS re my claim against M&S (Allianz) - They have not upheld my complaint and i have until the 27/8/2014 to go back to have my claim reveiwed by the Ombudsman. The letter is worded as follows -

I am writing to let you know my assessment of your complaint about the way in which Marks and Spencer sold you a payment insurance policy.

Please note that we have set your complaint up against Allianz insurance because it has accepted responsibility for the sale of the ppi policy. However as the policy was originally sold by M&S throughout this letter for ease of reference.

HOW I ASSESSED YOUR COMPLAINT.
When we assess complaints, we are impartial and independent. We give equal consideration to the information we get from both consumers and financial businesses, to decide what we think is fair and reasonable in each case.

If there is a dispute about what happened we base our conclusions on what we think is most likely to have happened in light of the evidence we have.

In looking at your case, i took into account your complaint about M&S, your circumstances at eh time you bought the policy and a number of questions about the policy and how it was sold, including
Where you eligible for the policy?
Did you have a real choice in taking out the policy?
Did the business make it clear to you the policy was optional?
Would you have been caught by any other important limitations in the policy?
Were the policys costs and benefits made clear to you?

MY ASSESSMENT - Having weighed up all this information , i am recommending that we do not uphold your complaint.
I have explained the reasons in more detail below, and set out what this means for you. You can also read more about the approach i took to your case in the online PPi resource on our website.

YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE POLICY -
In Oct 1991, you took out a regular ppi policy on an m&s card. You took the policy out by filling out a leaflet after speaking to a member of staff at the Moorgate branch of M&S.
The cost of the PPI policy was 0.64p per £100 of outstanding montly balance. if you made a successful claim the ppi policy would cover 15% of the outstanding monthly balance on your credit card.
At the time you were around 24 years old and a UK resident. You were employed full time as a textile buyer. You told us you had worked in this role for five years and were entitled to some sick pay from your employer. You also told us you had savings and financial assistance from your parents that you could use to make your repayments

THE MAIN FACTORS IN YOUR CASE
When we assess complaints, we start by establishing whether or not the financial business recommended that you buy the policy. if they did recommend it you you, they had a duty to make sure the policy was suitable for you.
From the information i have gathered, i do not think M&S advised you take out the policy. Altough the agreement you signed says "we strongly recommend you take this cover by ticking this box" this was not a personalised recommendation based on information that M&S had gathered about your circumstances and needs. For that reason, i still can't conclude that m&S advised you take the plicy out, and so i have kept this in mind in looking at your case.

WERE YOU ELIGIBLE FOR THE POLICY?
We look at whether you were eligible for the policy as it was m&s responsibility to check this or to give you clear enought information to let you check for yourself. Factors that could have made you ineligible for the policy include your age, country of residence and employment status. When i checked the terms of your policy , i found you were eligible for the plicy when you took it our.

DID YOU HAVE A REAL CHOICE IN TAKING OUT THE POLICY?
As well as lling at whether m&S made it clear the policy was opitional, we consider whether you felt you had a real choice in taking it out. For example if you were sold the policy by a sales advisor who was overly insistent we might conclude m&S pressured you into buying it.
Because this is a very subjective area, we need to find evidence to support your view, like a recording of the sales call, if you were sold it over the phone, to conclude you were pressured into buying the policy.

Even though you have told us you felt pressured into taking out the policy, i donot have strong enough evidence to uphold your complaint based only on what you have said.

DID THE BUSINESS MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU THE POLICY WAS OPTIONAL?
We check whether m&s made it clear that you had a choice about whether or not you took out the policy. For example if the paperwork stated the policy was opitional it might suffest that m&S made it clear to you.

Looking over your policy and all the infjormation m&S gave you when you took it out , i have found that - you made it clear you wanted to take out the policy in your aplication. Because of this i cannot safely say m&s did not make it clear to you the policy was optional.

WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN CAUGHT BAY ANDY OTHER IMPORTANT LIMITATIONS IN THE POLICY?
We check whether you would have been affected by andy other restrictions in the policys terms - Looking at the policys terms and your circumstances when you took out the policy , i cannot see that you would have been caught by any of its main limitations.

WERE THE POLICYS COSTS AND BENEFITS MADE CLEAR TO YOU?
We check whether m&s set out the costs and benefits of the policy clearly. if we find they didn't we look at your circumstances at the time and consider whether you might not have taken out the policy if you'd had it made clearer

Looking at the imformation you had when you bought the policy, i think it is unlikely that clearer information about its costs and benefits would have affected your decision to take it out. I CAN SEE M&S COULD HAVE MADE THE INFORMATION CLEARER TO YOU. But i think your circumstances at the time suggest the policy was not too expensive for you and that its benefits could have been useful to you.

WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU?

For the reasons i have explained and after taking into account all other evidence i have, i cannot conclude that m&s missold you the policy. That is why i am recommending we do not uphold your complaint.

They then go on to say that if i disagree with the disagree i have the right to ask for the Ombudsman to look over my case and must make do this by the 27th of August. I must then tick which choice applies to me - either , I HAVE NEW INFORMATION ON MY COMPLAINT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT OR I DONOT THINK YOU UNDERSTOOD THE FACTS IN MY CASE.

Wondered if anyone could help with how i should proceed with this and what your comments are to the FOS reply? As i'm shocked that they have sided with M&s on this ? thanks Kelly

[Victoria27]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Hi Kelly,


I must say I share your shock. Hard to believe, they could side with M&S on this.
It seems like the Ombudsman becomes more and more an extension of the businesses, rather than an impartial body.
It becomes a rather worrying issue, which should be brought to the attention of the relevant organisations.


I looked at this thread and I thought that you had a winning case.
Ther letter Bill-K suggested covered all the issues.


(I do understand why M&S, said to you they "investigated" your case without you filling in a questionnaire. They have an option to fill it in for you on the phone. I had a similar situation, when they asked me if I wanted them to send me a questionnaire or to fill it in for me on the phone. It is just to clarify for you why they did not send you a questionnaire.)


You mentioned that you were self employed. I am not clear were you self employed? What was your employment status?


The way it looks to me, both, M&S and the Ombudsman ignored the FCA guidelines, which were rightly quoted by Bill-K (at that time it was FSA, now FCA).


It is totally unreasonable to suggest that "we strongly recommend" is not a recommendation because it is not personolised.
If you trust the business, then you believe that if you do not do what is "strongly recommended" by the business, your application might not be accepted, your credit limit will not be sufficient, your standing with the company will not be the best etc.
I always did what was "strongly recommended", it is what one does when we trust the business we are dealing with. We should not be punished for our trust.


Your case being rejected by the FOS now made me very determined to take it as far as possible, not just the Ombudsman, which is our nest step, but further still.
It is outrageous and, if you have any strength left after such an unfair treatment by both, the company and so called "impartial" organisation, I believe you should not only take it to the Ombudsman, but also inform your local MP, to contact and alert Which Legal (Which Money department), possibly the press, like Daily Mail, may be even Watch Dog.
I noticed that involvement of a Member of Parliament as well as Which Magazine often makes organisations behave better.
(Also, in case, the Ombudsman rejects, it is still possible to take it to Small Claims Court. Whatever the outcome might be it usually attracts negative publicity, which all those companies are trying to avoid. Also it almost does not cost you anything, very little, and it is for the sake of justice and public awareness. You have nothing to lose, they do.
We have our great L'pool, who knows the procedure very well, should it come that and you decide to go for it.)


Our amazing Di and other experts with the Ombudsman procedures will be able to advise you about the best way to reply to the Ombudsman, it has to be urgent as you have a deadline. This is your first priority.
However, I think it is a bigger issue than just your individual case, which seems a straight forward case of a genuine mis-sale. Such an attitude from the FOS affects a large number of public and therefore it has to be make more public.


(May be we should start on LB a special thread about our experience with the FOS. I see more and ore cases, which are the cause for a concern.)


It seems like in your case it should be a second option, you should tick the box for.
It is them, the FOS, who did not understand the facts of your case.
Unless, of course, you do have some new and useful information, which, you think may help. The information you supplied so far, as I see it, should have been more than enough to get your case upheld. That is a common sense.


Let's see what our LB experts will say, but my feeling is that you should wright a very strong response, a complaint about the way your case was handled. It is truly shocking.
The FCA guidelines were totally ignored.


Our brilliant Di is an expert on the Ombudsman.
I'll let her know about your post.


I'll also will give it some thought.


Let's not allow them to treat us that way. Please, do not give up, but continue to stand up for your rights.


Very best,


Victoria

[L'pool64]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Hi Kelly,

sorry to to hear about your case; however magnificent support from Victoria. I wholeheartedly agree that this is a case for your MP to take up. The FOS have a special area where they deal with correspondence from MPs, so they do take them seriously. Look up your MPs website to find out the times of the surgeries.

The thing is and, to me, the crux of the matter is, did the information that M & S gave you at the time, enable you to make an informed decision? I think it is that that you have to major on. I have enclosed some text below that I have used with another company, which may be helpful to you. (My case is still with the Ombudsman)
(start)

1. Charging; there are in fact several aspects to this. It does not cost £xxx amount per hundred as indicated on literature. This is only the initial aspect of the cost. The monthly PPI premium, when added to the ongoing balance of the card (which incurred interest in excess of 20%), increases substantially.


Additionally, supported by the Office of Fair Trading's April 2006 statement into credit card charges, which noted that the level of charges at the time and, prior to that period were unfair, Xxxxxx premiums were added to my account, where charges (for late payments and going over the credit limit) well in excess of the recommended £12.00, had been applied. Again, substantially increasing the cost.


So, as per my initial complaint, please explain to me how the information that Xxxxxx provided when I took the PPI out, made these facts clear and, as such, would have put me in a position where I was able to make an informed decision.
( end )

if this text is any good to you, go for it, if not no problem.

The Ombudsman has said it is difficult to see how they could have made it clearer, (a) well e g was something like the text above, written down clearly on the literature? (b ) if something is wrong, does the lack of alternative make it right?

finally for back up, you can refer to the regulators publications 2008 on PPI, if you need to "quote" back to them.

finally, the small claims court is nothing to be afraid of. Remember, to you, this is the most important case there is. To everybody else, your case is just one of thousands..........

good do luck and very best regards,

:beagle:

[Victoria27]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Wonderful points, L'pool! I agree 100%.
Good luck with your existing case with the Ombudsman.


Best of luck to you, Kelly. Please, go for it and do not let them get away with such an unfair "investigation".


We are here to help.


Victoria

[di30]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

Hi Kelly

So sorry to hear your news but you can still get it reviewed.

The info posted by our Victoria and L'pool is superb and I totally agree with them.

I also recently had a case with the FOS for almost 2 years, and had a bit of messing with them, I had 3 different adjudicators, as each left the business, but the first one was coming back to me suggesting it to be no upheld, then uphold and not to uphold again, where it eventually was partly upheld by the Ombudsman. I was not happy with the way my case was dealt with and did complain to the Manager all after it completed with the ombudsman, due to health issues as well and the stress they caused me.

However, a case I had with them some years ago was more straight forward, but i also do feel by going what I been through and others recently and now yourself too, that they do NOT act impartially, despite them saying they do!

Stay strong and stand your ground, follow the info given to you, and keep us posted, there is nothing further for me to suggest at the moment as our friends Victoria and L'pool have already posted the best way to go about this, but keep us posted and we can take it from there later on if needs be, but hopefully it will all be overturned for you x x :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Victoria27]

Re: Need help with M&S money ppi rejection letter

My dear friend Di,
Thank you very much for your comments.
I am so glad that you agree with L'pool and myself.
Your own experience with the Ombudsman was very frustrating, however you were strong and made them uphold at least partly.
Let's hope they will overturn for Kelly.
The MP involvement should help.
Fingers crossed for you, Kelly.
Please, keep us posted.
Vxx